Su-27 instruments functions (?)

Thats what i mean. The WCS knob only selects the primary sensor and the logic or the way it works depends on weapon of choice, position of the laser switch, position of the Ilumination switch and BVR mode, among others

And sadly but no, DCS is not modelling the large-small EOS box, neither the intensity knob for the EOS thermal discrimination.

Sorry, i send again a protected PDF version.

Here is an unprotected version. Please replace the protected one.

LINK

Thanks a lot, its a really interesting manual ... with lots of details I knew nothing about :)

Usually I dont like when people resurect such an old thread .. but in this case it bringed to light this real jewel of a document, so I'm just thankful for that .. kudos to you for the translation, and to Dudikoff for refloting the thread :D

Best regards,

Eduardo

Thanks Rudel.

Take in count the translation is not 100% accurated. Im sure there are some mistakes,, also because i have learned more since i´ve translated the document and now i know there are some issues but overall is a good aprox.

Someday i will edit the PDF to better accuracy.

Thats what i mean. The WCS knob only selects the primary sensor and the logic or the way it works depends on weapon of choice, position of the laser switch, position of the Ilumination switch and BVR mode, among others

Ok thanks for the clarification - I wasn't sure I had interpreted what you said correctly :)

And sadly but no, DCS is not modelling the large-small EOS box, neither the intensity knob for the EOS thermal discrimination.

Thats what I thought - like I said I am out of the loop, but my impression was that, that while FC3 aircraft got PFM, there had been no changes to the combat systems functionality. In that case I agree with you, that the change proposed by Dudikoff seems a little moot....at least in terms of realism.

Agree.

Everyone want as much content modeled as the real thing, but the FC level apart for the great PFM lacks dozens of things about systems, interactions between the sensors, etc.

So i agree the WCS logic could be improved but without a major update of the systems involved the difference changing the WCS knob is negligible except fot better HOTAS control.

... changing the WCS knob is negligible except for better HOTAS control.

OK. I’ll bite. What’s wrong with the control knob as depicted in the sim? It has the same elements the manual refers to, doesn’t it?

Unfortunately, I’m away from my copy of the manual but, if memory serves, as I read through the interaction of the two targeting systems it coincided with what we see in the sim.

Just to be clear - the selector knob positions "OLS" and "RLS" do not activate EOS or Radar as a general sensor selection, but activate two specific BVR modes(one using the EOS for the R-27ET and the other the radar for the R-27ER).

So, how does one activate the IRST then in the real plane to be used in this EOS BVR mode?

BTW - does DCS even simulate the EOS BVR mode(with the large -> small search area boxes)? I am seriously out of the loop, so maybe I have missed something, but last time I checked EOS was only simulated(display symbology) for the close combat modes("OPT" and "Vert").

And sadly but no, DCS is not modelling the large-small EOS box, neither the intensity knob for the EOS thermal discrimination.

I understand that the DCS doesn't represent it correctly graphically, but as I understand there is a BVR EOS mode when you press "2" and then activate the IRST. The radar will be disabled and IR target tracks will be shown which will look somewhat different than the radar targets (wider lines IIRC).

In that case I agree with you, that the change proposed by Dudikoff seems a little moot....at least in terms of realism.

Tough sub apparently, so I'll try again (perhaps I'm failing to understand some key point here?).

There is a physical switch for radar illumination in the cockpit. AFAIK, there is no physical switch for EOS sensor, so I presume that it's used automatically in BVR OLS mode and various CAC modes?

But, in any case when one changes the WCS knob from RLS to OLS or any of the CAC modes in the real airplane, the radar illumination switch will not budge in the real plane, it can stay put in radar illumination active mode.

The same is true in DCS for CAC modes (e.g. in MiG-29 there is a signal lamp showing that the radar illumination is still active e.g. in VS CAC mode even though the mode uses IRST sensor as a primary one as shown on the HUD). But, if you activate the IRST sensor ("I" key) while in BVR mode with radar on (so, this represents the RLS mode roughly), the radar will get disabled automatically which is inconsistent with how the CAC modes work in the game.

Finally, and this is my main problem with the current implementation, if you use Warthog throttle or something else with a two position switch to control this radar illumination, you have a problem as suddenly (when you activated IRST to switch to BVR OLS mode), the game deactivated your radar even though your physical switch is still in the active position. If you switch to any other mode after that, the radar will remain disabled.

So, all I am asking is for ED not to actually disable the radar in this case, as I presume the BVR OLS mode can get selected and used in the real plane without the need to physically switch off the radar illumination.

IMHO, the simplest way to do this is to remove the IRST key (which is not present in the real airplane anyway) and somehow toggle between the BVR radar and EOS modes (e.g. by repeated pressing of BVR mode key or by toggling the radar on and off), regardless if it is presented authentically or not in the game itself.

For example:

- When using the RLS and the OLS at the same time we cant select the primary sensor with the ILUM-EQUIV-OFF switch neither with the Laser switch, only with the master WCS knob and the missile selected.

- The two stage trigger system is missing so is impossible to use the OLS as the primary sensor automaticaly when the trigger is pressed at the first stage. When the trigger is pressed at the first stage the OLS is the primary sensor always and automatically, independently from the WCS master knob position or weapon type. In DCS if you have a RLS lock changing to cannon keeps the radar lock. No OLS as primary.

- When the target is locked both on RLS and OLS and the weapons is changed to a IR missile the WCS knob must be changed to OLS but in DCS you can still use IR missiles even if the RLS is the primary sensor.

- There is no KBO mode when the primary sensor is the OLS. WCS knob in OLS position. ( KBO mode is a micro radar emission in short pulses to assist the OLS measuring the range to target ). No ILU signal on the HUD. In DCS you need to turn on the RLS to have the ILU signal on the HUD but this is no KBO mode, is a normal STT track assisting the OLS.

- At less than 15 km form the target (in KBO mode, with OLS lock ) the radar is not changing to STT and in the lights panel RLS LOCK is not illuminated, only OLS LOCK and ILU signal.

- With a target lock and IR missiles selected, changing the WCS knob from OLS to RLS in DCS is not makign the RLS the primary sensor. Still OLS lock and ILU signal on the HUD.

There are more, specially related to the Laser swicht position but those are the main ones.

Dudikoff, your problem is HOTAS related i think.

I have an X-55 and i have mapped the sensors in one 4-way hat ( Up RLS Down OLS ). So when im for example in BVR mode with RLS on and i have a target lock i can activate at the same time the OLS and have the HUD cues on the left side of both sensors ( TP-RL).

Also if i want and im in range i can turn off the RLS while keeping OLS lock. Or keeping OLS lock as primary sensor turning on on the RLS with the HUD signal cue ILU. So is working both RLS primary OLS secondary, only one of the sensors or OLS primary RLS secondary.

@ Dudikoff,

Listen mate I understand what you are saying and I am not contesting what you propose.

But like Esac_mirmidon said, it just seems like a rather marginal improvement in the grand scale of things.....like some of the suggestions for fixing the current NAV shortcomings for the MiG-29.

Unfortunately FC3 doesn’t model the radar/EOS interaction properly. I have my hopes that RAZBAM will implement the correct logic in their MiG-23MLA module. That aircraft has that functionality irl, the only difference is it’s EOS which lacks laser rangefinder and whenever it’s used as primary sensor range data is obtained by the Sapphire-23 radar.

Unfortunately FC3 doesn’t model the radar/EOS interaction properly. I have my hopes that RAZBAM will implement the correct logic in their MiG-23MLA module. That aircraft has that functionality irl, the only difference is it’s EOS which lacks laser rangefinder and whenever it’s used as primary sensor range data is obtained by the Sapphire-23 radar.

Yes an interesting upcoming aircraft module for sure....but not quite an Su-27 or MiG-29 :)

Thanks everyone for all the great info in this thread! I have a question along the same lines: how does one perform the "return to search" (target unlock) function in the Su-27? On the MiG-29, there's the white "break-lock"/"сброс" button on the stick, but that's replaced with the BVR/CCM switch on the Su-27 stick.

It still has a button like this. Should be backspace by default.

Thanks everyone for all the great info in this thread! I have a question along the same lines: how does one perform the "return to search" (target unlock) function in the Su-27? On the MiG-29, there's the white "break-lock"/"сброс" button on the stick, but that's replaced with the BVR/CCM switch on the Su-27 stick.

In the Su-27, according to my documentation, it's on the throttle and I believe it's the button marked "Unlock" in an image earlier in this thread:

Su-27 Throttle

- the DISCARD (СБРОС) button: used to cancel tracking of a target in OEPS, RLPK, cancel target tracking a missile’s thermal guidance head (ТГС) in OPTICAL and HELMET mode, and to disable the laser rangefinder when in use against ground targets;

It still has a button like this. Should be backspace by default.

Thanks! But where is that button in the actual Su-27's cockpit?

In the Su-27, according to my documentation, it's on the throttle and I believe it's the button marked "Unlock" in an image earlier in this thread:

Thanks Ironhand! What documentation are you quoting? The button marked "unlock" in that image was discussed a couple pages earlier in this thread and is actually for unlocking movement of the throttle into the afterburner range:

They are not buttons, but the "pins" actuated by the AB release paddles.

 

There are stops on the throttle rail preventing the handles from being moved into idle as well as AB regime - the paddle switches at front(in the photo) unlock the AB stops, while there are two smaller paddles at the back of the handles for idle unlock.

Thanks Ironhand! What documentation are you quoting? The button marked "unlock" in that image was discussed a couple pages earlier in this thread and is actually for unlocking movement of the throttle into the afterburner range:

I'm quoting the real world Su-27SK manual.

I'm quoting the real world Su-27SK manual.

Wow, where did you find this English version? The only English version I've found is translated by a robot and is not as easy to understand - for example, that sentence is written as:

- button is JETTISONING, for jettisoning the target from the accompaniment [OEPS], [RLPK], jettisoning the target by head [TGS] in the modes WHOLESALE, HELMET; for turning off LD with the work on the ground targets;

But I don't see this "СБРОС" button anywhere on the throttle? The only thing close is the "СБРОС ДО-ЛТЦ" button, which I understand is for deploying countermeasures (as discussed in section 5.18 of the manual). Maybe this is a difference between the Su-27SK and our Su-27S?

Wow, where did you find this English version? The only English version I've found is translated by a robot and is not as easy to understand - for example, that sentence is written as:

 

 

 

But I don't see this "СБРОС" button anywhere on the throttle? The only thing close is the "СБРОС ДО-ЛТЦ" button, which I understand is for deploying countermeasures (as discussed in section 5.18 of the manual). Maybe this is a difference between the Su-27SK and our Su-27S?

The translation is my own. I've slowly been working my way through the manual as time and interest permits.

Diagrams of the throttle also describe those pins as "СБРОС". I'll have to check out that section (5,18 ), when I get a chance.

The translation is my own. I've slowly been working my way through the manual as time and interest permits.

Oh very nice!

Well hey, I figured it out! The "СБРОС" target unlock button is actually a little button tucked away on the front of the throttle above the afterburner pins, which is hidden from view in pretty much every existing picture of the Su-27 throttle, including the one above (it's just barely out of sight under the red box for the button labeled "RADIO" there). Here's a labeled screenshot:

And I corrected that labeled throttle image that was posted earlier in this thread:

Thanks for your help, Ironhand!

(Curious that the lock/unlock controls are so different for the Su-27 and MiG-29. On the Su-27, lock is a thumb throttle button and unlock is an index finger throttle button, but on the MiG-29, lock is an index finger throttle button and unlock is a button on the stick. I wonder why?)

Oh very nice!

 

 

Well hey, I figured it out! The "СБРОС" target unlock button is actually a little button tucked away on the front of the throttle above the afterburner pins, which is hidden from view in pretty much every existing picture of the Su-27 throttle, including the one above (it's just barely out of sight under the red box for the button labeled "RADIO" there). Here's a labeled screenshot:

...

 

And I corrected that labeled throttle image that was posted earlier in this thread:

...

 

Perfect! Hidden in the shadow. I adjusted the image just a bit to make the button more noticeable:

Turns out I was misinterpreting the diagram I had. It's actually pointing to that button. I thought it was one of the AB pins.

,,,

 

(Curious that the lock/unlock controls are so different for the Su-27 and MiG-29. On the Su-27, lock is a thumb throttle button and unlock is an index finger throttle button, but on the MiG-29, lock is an index finger throttle button and unlock is a button on the stick. I wonder why?)

Different manufacturers, different approaches, I suppose.

This is the stuff I read this site for:)

:) This thread ought to be a Sticky.

:) This thread ought to be a Sticky.

Good point. Given that this is an Su-27 dedicated forum could this threat be stickied please?

I think the Su-27's DCS manual has outright incorrect HUD symbology. For example I think it doesn't show the ILU mark at the bottom of the HUD with the Radar on. At least in the version I'm looking at, it may have been changed. The HUD symbology appears to correspond with the IRL symbology so is probably just a manual issue...

I think the Su-27's DCS manual has outright incorrect HUD symbology. For example I think it doesn't show the ILU mark at the bottom of the HUD with the Radar on. At least in the version I'm looking at, it may have been changed. The HUD symbology appears to correspond with the IRL symbology so is probably just a manual issue...

I’m sure there are several places where things don’t match up. The manual gets updated once every long while. In this case, though, it’s most likely an oversight.