F/A-18C, DCS World 2 and Steam

With all due respect: Come on, Skatezilla.

To be fair, the wording of this statement should rather be "[...] the general userbase [...]".

This overall concept of "early access" and "development branches" (or "branches" in general for that matter) seems to be very hard to grasp for people in general. Please consider all the threads in these very forums of people complaining that, for instance, Viggen was released into the beta branch of 1.5 while itself was still in beta, as well. Or all the other complains of the graphic issues in 2.2 (or what ever version it is/was). Or expressions such as "plane xyz is grounded until <random functionallity> is fixed". This list goes on and on.

The issue is the ratings, not the different userbases (of which I think they are not really that different).

Within Steam the user can give ratings for the products they purchased. Those rating would be seen by everybody who wants to inform himself on the product and then might reconsider to buy DCS modules. Based on ratings which are, in fact, unrealistic. From a developers point of view it is very understandable that ED wants to avoid this.

Also, I assume that if ED would have a rating system on their own platform, they would end up in the same region. (Based on the threads of people complaining within these very formus, I made this assumption.)

On a side note:

It is also rather strange that users in here try to advertise the stand-alone version with expressions like "you get modules earlier" and not mentioning that they are incomplete due to early access. However, that is the name of the game - if you buy into early access the product might be slightly cheaper but the software is incomplete and buggy and the developer expects to get useful (!) and mature (!) feedback.

This concept is not for everybody. However, each customer needs to decide for themselfes.

Because the General Steam Userbase has issues with Pre-Release Products.

 

They Purchase them and expect a Bug Free/Feature Complete piece of software, then give bad reviews and demand refunds

 

The best way to avoid it is to not offer pre-release products.

I agree with Skate here... the only way bugs are acceptable (and still not always) is with Early Access titles (labeled that way in steam).

My personal viewpoint is DCS is best waiting for the merge before reintroducing itself on steam.

I agree with Skate here... the only way bugs are acceptable (and still not always) is with Early Access titles (labeled that way in steam).

 

My personal viewpoint is DCS is best waiting for the merge before reintroducing itself on steam.

Yep, I agree

DCS needs to be on steam, the push now for a stable 2.5 and getting many of the modules out of "beta" will see a change for steam users. The guys and girls that see the big picture where ED is pushing to, move over to stand alone and most understand ED's not making goat simulators here and are happy with the early access and to help ED move forward.

.

I use steam for 99% of my games (and some software suites)... Since prolly 2004.

The Overall impression of the entire steam userbase is:

-Users Expect Arcade/Easy to Play Games

(Enormous amount of griping on Simulation Games being too Hard to learn and not fun)

-Users Expect Cheaper Games

(Again, More Griping about cost of DLC not being cheap like other games, [ie Users want DCS Aircraft to be $4.99, because "$60 is too expensive for DLC"])

-Users want Games that run on max details on mid-range hardware

(Users Gripe that they can play Call of Duty 4 on Max Details but cant play DCS On Max).

-Users want Games that are Feature Complete and nearly Bug Free

(Users leave constant bad reviews and comments about how incomplete or buggy Early Access Titles are, knowing it was early access when they purchased it.)

In his first sentence he is labeling the users coming from Steam as being specifically difficult when it comes to "early access".

Is this what you agree on, or have I misunderstood your post?

On the other part, that "early access" means unfinished products, but people somehow expect it to be finished/complete, I agree on (as pointed out in my post earlier).

I'm arguing here, that both user bases are similar (basically the same, just choose a different platform to get DCS from), and only the ratings are the issue. Which, I argue, can be seen by all the threads in this forum here where people complain about modules that are in early access. It is the same thought process here, as well. Just ED has no rating system in place, thus it is slightly more hidden, since one needs to actually read those threads.

I agree with Skate here... the only way bugs are acceptable (and still not always) is with Early Access titles (labeled that way in steam).

 

My personal viewpoint is DCS is best waiting for the merge before reintroducing itself on steam.

So, you don't see this behaviour here in this forum, as well? All the people who ask for the next time module XYZ is on sale, or complaining (not actually reporting, but complaining) about missing functions of "early access" modules?

You don't see this as a general behaviour, but mainly for the Steam users?

If so, then I disagree.

Of course there is some separation that has already taken place, for people who come to these forums instead of the Steam product page. And there you have people giving bad ratings for e.g. high DLC prices, because they do not understand that this is not their regular "three new skins and one extra weapon" kind of DLC. But still, the trend is the same here, as well as there.

I use steam for 99% of my games (and some software suites)... Since prolly 2004.

 

The Overall impression of the entire steam userbase is:

 

-Users Expect Arcade/Easy to Play Games

(Enormous amount of griping on Simulation Games being too Hard to learn and not fun)

 

-Users Expect Cheaper Games

(Again, More Griping about cost of DLC not being cheap like other games, [ie Users want DCS Aircraft to be $4.99, because "$60 is too expensive for DLC"])

 

-Users want Games that run on max details on mid-range hardware

(Users Gripe that they can play Call of Duty 4 on Max Details but cant play DCS On Max).

 

-Users want Games that are Feature Complete and nearly Bug Free

(Users leave constant bad reviews and comments about how incomplete or buggy Early Access Titles are, knowing it was early access when they purchased it.)

In his first sentence he is labeling the users coming from Steam as being specifically difficult when it comes to "early access".

Is this what you agree on, or have I misunderstood your post?

On the other part, that "early access" means unfinished products, but people somehow expect it to be finished/complete, I agree on (as pointed out in my post earlier).

 

I'm arguing here, that both user bases are similar (basically the same, just choose a different platform to get DCS from), and only the ratings are the issue. Which, I argue, can be seen by all the threads in this forum here where people complain about modules that are in early access. It is the same thought process here, as well. Just ED has no rating system in place, thus it is slightly more hidden, since one needs to actually read those threads.

I'm referring to the millions upon millions of steam users, not just the DCS Users on steam.

I'm not the only person that sees the trends on the Steam Discussions and Reviews, A lot of AAA developers have ceased putting out Early Access Content due to how the Steam Userbase Expects and responds to them.

The Userbase on this forum is a lot more mature and constructive than steam, by leaps and bounds.

lack of ratings are better, people are too predisposed to make hasty judgements.

they ought to be forced to read everything.

especially the manual.

Apologies if someone said this already and I missed it...

I think the issue is that, while Steam allows programs to be released early access (and labels them as such), I believe DLCs cannot be issued in pre-release status.

Steam treats DCS World as the main program, and the modules are classed as DLC, so I don't think they can release the hornet or any other modules in a pre-release state.

Of course, ED could just do what a lot of Steam developers do, and *claim* an obviously unfinished product is actually at release stage... maybe those developers are mistakenly set to CCIP? :D

Off topic but take a look at the Dayz discussion and the dev bashing because its still bugged, Hence why 2.0 and other modules wont release on steam until complete :thumbup:

Personally, I don't like Steam and prefer to not use it. I'm glad DCS also has the stand alone option. I probably wouldn't own it if it didn't.

Yes, the modules are expensive and i've been known to whine about it, but I still buy them so I must think they're worth it.

But why would anyone even use Steam DCS?

The correct question is, why ED even bothers to be in Steam when they are not supporting it?

And the correct answer would be that, they need to withdraw from Steam and just forget the whole "trial at Steam" as is.

But why would anyone even use Steam DCS?

Simples, in one word .......

Refunds

Apologies if someone said this already and I missed it...

 

I think the issue is that, while Steam allows programs to be released early access (and labels them as such), I believe DLCs cannot be issued in pre-release status.

Yes and yes. The game as any DLC can be in early access. But problem is that the game can't be in Early Access and get a Paid DLC.

The game can as well offer a multiple versions from open to closed betas, alphas and so on branches. But you can only have a single branch installed at the time.

This as well means that the DLC you can get can be in the specific branch. But still you can't ask payment if the main game is in Early Access.

Of course, ED could just do what a lot of Steam developers do, and *claim* an obviously unfinished product is actually at release stage... maybe those developers are mistakenly set to CCIP? :D

That is what ED should do. Set the DCS World as Stable, offer then the DLC as betas and then simply push a Beta and Alpha of the DCS via branching for those who want to get Open Beta and Open Alpha.

@ SkateZilla:

My apologies for leaving this discussion all of a sudden; real life interrupted quite a bit.

I'll give you that the users here seem to be slightly more mature. This sample, however, has quite some bias, since DCS is very specific kind of game which is not everybodys cup of tea.

Still, from my perspective, the view you show in the posts above is overly simple.

Steam has an active user base of around 67 million players per month (https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/steam-statistics/), thus I would argue that it is safe to assume that this is a cross section of society (with respect to gaming, of course) and can be used as representation of the average gamer.

Therefore, it is not a "Steam-user-issue" but a "general-people-issue", " haters gonna hate" if you like.

The trends are the same in here, but slightly smoothed/mature. However, this might be strongly biased, since here you have moderators who try to steer the discussions and even suspend peoples posting rights if they cross the line. I would argue that this helps also quite a lot to have less unreasonable negative feedback.

Maybe, if you need to suspend somones posting rights, it is because of that persons posts are not mature?

Which raises the question: if you would not manage the discussions, how mature would it actually be in here?

I claim, one could not distinguish this forum from others, without the moderators in place.

@Fri13

Games on Steam, while still in early access, can receive paid DLC. At least they could until a while ago, but this might have changed. One of the best examples for this would be ARK and the massive uproar it caused: https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/2/12776612/ark-survival-evolved-early-access-paid-dlc

Such a behaviour of a game developer might also factor into the negative perception of the "early-access" concept by some people. So it is both sides to be blamed, up to a degree.

However, I'll stop now to not move everything even more off topic.

EDIT:

Since DCS 2.x is now available on Steam (early-access), as well as NTTR (paid DLC), I would assume that this "no paid DLC for early-access" discussion has come to a close. ;)

Fly safe, everybody!