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Old 09-21-2020, 10:37 PM   #51
dundun92
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Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
IMO, the biggest advantage in the Blue planes is not the missiles, but the situational awareness they afford.

Not really, just look at the Flanker in stuff like SATAL before the AMRAAM update; if the bandits had 120Bs it was pretty much a fair fight, with the Flankers having the notable range and NEZ of the ER vs the Fire and Forget (but much less range/NEZ) of the 120B, which also had pretty low chaff resistance. Even with 120Cs, despite similar-ish range/NEZ considering how easy they were notch, it was still manageable. Now, the current 120B is pretty much better than the old 120C in every way except in pure Stern WEZ. Its basically impossible to notch without a super accurate RWR, and is more maneuverable than the 9M or R-73. While the SA of blue jets does help, I dont think its the main reason the Flanker isnt very competitive.


Not in any way saying the missile changes shouldnt have happened, they needed to for realism. Nor am I saying the goal for ED is to balance the Flanker artificially. Just pointing out that it was a lot more balanced before all the AMRAAM changes.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:53 AM   #52
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I really think we will just end up with more or less the same meta as before when all the missiles are reworked with the ranges not so watered down
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:01 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by dundun92 View Post
Not really, just look at the Flanker in stuff like SATAL before the AMRAAM update; if the bandits had 120Bs it was pretty much a fair fight, with the Flankers having the notable range and NEZ of the ER vs the Fire and Forget (but much less range/NEZ) of the 120B, which also had pretty low chaff resistance. Even with 120Cs, despite similar-ish range/NEZ considering how easy they were notch, it was still manageable. Now, the current 120B is pretty much better than the old 120C in every way except in pure Stern WEZ. Its basically impossible to notch without a super accurate RWR, and is more maneuverable than the 9M or R-73. While the SA of blue jets does help, I dont think its the main reason the Flanker isnt very competitive.


Not in any way saying the missile changes shouldnt have happened, they needed to for realism. Nor am I saying the goal for ED is to balance the Flanker artificially. Just pointing out that it was a lot more balanced before all the AMRAAM changes.
No, my point is that even if both sides had the exact same missiles, the blue fighters afford more SA. That is undeniable.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:19 AM   #54
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No, my point is that even if both sides had the exact same missiles, the blue fighters afford more SA. That is undeniable.
The F-15 in DCS has less SA. And in singleplayer, even the F-18/16 do not have more SA, since they get fed by AWACS and other fighters, while Su-27 gets fed by AWACS, other fighters and EWR.

In the 80s and 90s, practically no blue fighters had as sophisticated datalink as the Su-27. And even in more modern times, practically everything can feed a Flanker, while NATO planes only get fed by AWACS and other fighters.

The blue fighters having more SA applies to the fight against 70s-early 80s fighters like MiG-21,23,25 and 29A, since they were designed to be micromanaged by GCI, with the pilots individually only seeing what they needed to.

When all missiles are modelled to the same standard (in terms of chaff resistance and drag), our FC3 russian 80s/90s planes will be able to fight 90s 120Bs on more or less even terms. To fight 2000s 120C on even terms, ask 3rd party devs for 2000s Su-30MKI or Su-27SM3/J-11B.

Last edited by Max1mus; 09-22-2020 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
No, my point is that even if both sides had the exact same missiles, the blue fighters afford more SA. That is undeniable.
Well that gap certainly does exist when one compares something as modern as Link 16 to soviet era TLK,



But the gap in game is wider than it aught be as the Su-27 is still missing functions from its data link like peer to peer and fighter to fighter modes that ED refuses to add because its a LOMAC plane sadly.


I think first and foremost people want an accurate depiction of the current red (and all) planes' capabilities we have in game, as a sim should.


But also people want to have the plane set of a near peer adversary which is a period correct foe, fore realisms sake


Would be weird to have a battle of Britain set up with PZL P.11s and I-16s fighting against He-112s and the odd Bf-109g6 if you catch what I mean
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:36 AM   #56
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But the gap in game is wider than it aught be as the Su-27 is still missing functions from its data link like peer to peer and fighter to fighter modes that ED refuses to add because its a LOMAC plane sadly.
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Old 09-22-2020, 03:45 PM   #57
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Mwa not that much sadly
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