JTAC laser vs Litening laser

I'm curious as to why when self-lasing I must wait until ~12sec until impact to turn on my laser or risk my GBUs falling short of the target, but the JTAC can keep their laser on throughout the entire free-fall? The things I think about while milking cows... haha

I'm curious as to why when self-lasing I must wait until ~12sec until impact to turn on my laser or risk my GBUs falling short of the target, but the JTAC can keep their laser on throughout the entire free-fall? The things I think about while milking cows... haha

That rule applies to both cases, afaik. The thing is, that it is not set in stone and you will usually still get a good kill even if you (self) lase the whole time. But it can happen that you bombs will fall short - it is a matter of physics, not a matter of who does the lasing.

When the bomb picks up the laser spot it begins with corrections of its "flight" path. But every correction costs energy, so it can happen that it falls short because in the end it doesn't have enough energy for the last corrections

A-10 flies so slowly that the bomb is falling practically straight down and sagging due to constant lasing isn't such a problem. Delayed lasing is more important if you are dropping from 600 knots at 2,000' because the trajectory is very flat.

Some care may be needed at low altitudes, high speeds, and shallow dives. Diving allows guidance earlier as the bomb is already rotated to face the laser spot.

The GBU-12/10s use "Bang-Bang" control, that means that their control surfaces will always deflect to maximum and back to zero.

In doing so, it creates a very simple system but it has its drawbacks, the most important one is already mentioned in this thread, it bleeds energy all the time it tries to home in on the laser spot and can, in some cases will, fall short of the target.

Lasing for the last 10 seconds means the GBU hasn't bled a lot of energy and there's still plenty to guide the bomb on target.

That we usually do is acquire laser spot from the JTAC, switch off laser, do your run and call pickle and call laser on so the JTAC switches on his laser to illuminate the target.

Works very good.

I agree with everything that was said so far.

But many people say they just start lasing as soon as they pickle and their hit/miss ratio is about the same as everyone else's, even when dropping from 25000 feet (most definitely not at 600 KIAS in the A-10, though ;))

I read about the first series of Paveways falling short during Desert Storm, when F-15E Strike Eagles were hastily equipped with TGPs. Back then the pilots adopted by lasing only for the last 10 or maybe 15 seconds.

Not sure if the problem still applies to the latest generation of LGBs, though.

I agree with everything that was said so far.

 

But many people say they just start lasing as soon as they pickle and their hit/miss ratio is about the same as everyone else's, even when dropping from 25000 feet (most definitely not at 600 KIAS in the A-10, though ;))

 

I read about the first series of Paveways falling short during Desert Storm, when F-15E Strike Eagles were hastily equipped with TGPs. Back then the pilots adopted by lasing only for the last 10 or maybe 15 seconds.

 

Not sure if the problem still applies to the latest generation of LGBs, though.

So the "laser on" time really doesn't matter then? Thanks to everyone who replied btw:)

Just set auto lase to 10-15 seconds like yurgon says. I use 11 sec auto lase with every gbu12, i didnt miss any since i started use that.

Just set auto lase to 10-15 seconds like yurgon says. I use 11 sec auto lase with every gbu12, i didnt miss any since i started use that.

I appreciate the advice but I don't want this thread to turn into something that its not. Ive been in the hog for about 3 years now and know how to employ LGBs pretty well, im just not sure why it seems that a gbu dropped at, say, 8000agl 250 kts, wings level will tend to fall short if self-lasing from pickle but almost always splash target if following a jtac laser from pickle. I apologize if I wasnt more clear on this before.

I appreciate the advice but I don't want this thread to turn into something that its not. Ive been in the hog for about 3 years now and know how to employ LGBs pretty well, im just not sure why it seems that a gbu dropped at, say, 8000agl 250 kts, wings level will tend to fall short if self-lasing from pickle but almost always splash target if following a jtac laser from pickle. I apologize if I wasnt more clear on this before.

If the release parameters are really the same, it really should make no difference and the end result should be the same. If it is not, then you might have found a really weired bug ...

Think of it this way: the bomb follows a balistic curve when released. This is the natural path for it with the energy it has. To deviate from this path, it's energy has to change: to make it fly farther, energy has to be added, to make it fly less far, the bomb has to be "braked".

Now the guidance system makes the bomb try to follow a straight path directly to the target. If the end point of the flight path in unguided/ballistic flight and guided/straight flight is the same (the target) and the release point is also identical, the straight line between release point and end point is obviously shorter than the path of the ballistic curve.

Therefore the weapon must lose energy to be able to follow the shorter path. This is the easy part: losing energy is always possible due aerodynamic effects. But if the bomb is about to fall short, there is no way to add more energy anymore. So if it has lost already a lot of energy due to following the straight, guided path from the very beginning, there might be not enough energy left in the end when the guidance system tries to move the flight path forward to reach the desired impact point.

If the release parameters are really the same, it really should make no difference and the end result should be the same. If it is not, then you might have found a really weired bug ...

 

Think of it this way: the bomb follows a balistic curve when released. This is the natural path for it with the energy it has. To deviate from this path, it's energy has to change: to make it fly farther, energy has to be added, to make it fly less far, the bomb has to be "braked".

 

Now the guidance system makes the bomb try to follow a straight path directly to the target. If the end point of the flight path in unguided/ballistic flight and guided/straight flight is the same (the target) and the release point is also identical, the straight line between release point and end point is obviously shorter than the path of the ballistic curve.

 

Therefore the weapon must lose energy to be able to follow the shorter path. This is the easy part: losing energy is always possible due aerodynamic effects. But if the bomb is about to fall short, there is no way to add more energy anymore. So if it has lost already a lot of energy due to following the straight, guided path from the very beginning, there might be not enough energy left in the end when the guidance system tries to move the flight path forward to reach the desired impact point.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that. So, the gbu has enough energy at release to afford to expend a decent amount with every adjustment, even if it starts correcting immediately after release? I always seemed to have my gbu fall short due to expending too much energy making those corrections if I lase the whole time. TBH tho, I haven't tried a full TOF lase in a long time, it's very probable that I wasn't as precise in orientating my aircraft for a good ccrp drop, draining too much energy with pan corrections instead of just pitch.

I see what your saying before. People here understand the 10 second laser on call. Im not going to beat that to death. The bomb WILL land short on a continuous laser. If it doesnt in game then its a flaw in the game.

With what you said, continuous laser from the Aircraft drops short. This is correct. But if it hits its target during a ground based laser designation. Then that shouldnt happen IRL.

I think thats what you were looking for?

63

I see what your saying before. People here understand the 10 second laser on call. Im not going to beat that to death. The bomb WILL land short on a continuous laser. If it doesnt in game then its a flaw in the game.

 

With what you said, continuous laser from the Aircraft drops short. This is correct. But if it hits its target during a ground based laser designation. Then that shouldnt happen IRL.

 

I think thats what you were looking for?

 

63

YES!! This exactly, thank you, lol :)

Is probably modeled like that for simplicity and game mechanics. If not, the AI would have to know when did you release the bomb, time of fall, which angle to hit the target with the laser with so the bomb can see it...the closer to RL the more complexity grows exponentially. Realistically, if we release the weapons from the wrong side, the weapons would not see the laser, we don't have that in the sim.

So I think I get what your saying but I can't think of how it would the implemented. If all LGB miss with JTAC/FAC laser, people will complain about that also. Like everything else, it would have to be an option so people can have both worlds.

Is probably modeled like that for simplicity and game mechanics. If not, the AI would have to know when did you release the bomb, time of fall, which angle to hit the target with the laser with so the bomb can see it...the closer to RL the more complexity grows exponentially. Realistically, if we release the weapons from the wrong side, the weapons would not see the laser, we don't have that in the sim.

 

So I think I get what your saying but I can't think of how it would the implemented. If all LGB miss with JTAC/FAC laser, people will complain about that also. Like everything else, it would have to be an option so people can have both worlds.

So is there an actual laser system implemented similar to the litening laser or is there a completely different system for ai lasers? If it's similar to the tgp wouldnt just changing the jtac radio calls to cease and re-lase on command create a more realistic experience?

I don't know

Why doesn't someone just check what happens with JTAC laser ?

Create a mission with a JTAC. Make him use the laser. Follow his guidance.

When you pickle, start looking at the bomb in F6 view, to see when it starts to guide itself .

Why doesn't someone just check what happens with JTAC laser ?

 

Create a mission with a JTAC. Make him use the laser. Follow his guidance.

 

When you pickle, start looking at the bomb in F6 view, to see when it starts to guide itself .

My first chance since starting this thread will be tomorrow, I'll post what l see unless someone beats me to it.

Why doesn't someone just check what happens with JTAC laser ?

 

Create a mission with a JTAC. Make him use the laser. Follow his guidance.

 

When you pickle, start looking at the bomb in F6 view, to see when it starts to guide itself .

Finally had a chance to test this out today. It seems as though the gbu will not start following the laser guidance immediately after pickle and will instead fall ballistic for a fluctuating amount of time depending on the altitude. My first test was at 12000agl 260 knots and the gbu followed a ballistic path until around 15sec pre-impact before it started tracking even though the jtac laser was on the whole time.

This, however is the same response to a self lase under the same conditions so maybe the seekers fov is too small to spot the laser until it angles down some?

The only issue I really had with the jtac laser was during another test at 2600agl 300 knots. At pickle there was another delay before the gbu started tracking and then a very aggressive correction by the fins causing the nose to pitch way up which bled too much energy causing the bomb to fall short.

At least I can fairly confidently say there seems to be no noticable difference between a constant self lase or a constant jtac lase at altitudes >3000agl.

So now the question is, why is there a delay before tracking? Seeker fov or something else?

IFOV of Paveway II is I think 20° so for level release the bomb simply is not pointed to see laser spot. After some time of fall the bomb rotates naturally and the sensor can see the spot. This has the effect of reducing the guiding time.

Releasing a Paveway II in a dive the bomb sees the laser sooner. The guidance time is at a maximum when the bomb is released such that it can see the laser spot immediately. The seeker attempts to look for the spot at earliest ~1.5s (I forget actual time) after release by a timer in the GCS.

Of minor note is that the seeker is afixed to the bomb non-rigidly. The seeker has an integrated ring aerofoil and tends toward zero angle of attack aerodynamically even if the bomb is not. The maximum articulation between the seeker and bomb body is some angle (15°?). This can be seen when the bomb is on the ground and the seeker points downward due to gravity. At flight airspeed the seeker points nearly straight ahead.

So now the question is, why is there a delay before tracking? Seeker fov or something else?

Probably because that's just how it's programed in the game.

I too have noted the bombs only track 15 seconds from impact, and I've never had a bomb not hit when lasing continuously. Below 6,000AGL is when I start to have problems with the bombs hitting their target, no matter when I lase.

I too have recently noticed a differing behavior using laser guided bombs. Where I used to have a high success rate, now a large percentage of the time, my bombs fall short. I tested this again last night at an indicated 13,xxx altitude; bombs short. 7,xxx, short again. It does not seem to matter whether I lase at release, before release, etc.

This weekend, I was in a MP mission, I had to 12 GU12 (I know, this was crasy but this is not the point)

I star many bomb run (10 000 to 12 000 ft, 10 sec aut-lasi) all first bombs worked perfectly the : ent off for no reason.

On Open beta 2.5.4.2816