Fox 1 and fox 3 missiles detection

Yes, it's french and it stands for Détection de Départ de Missile which means Missile Warning System (MWS) in english...

I'm French native so OK here ;) I actually added the french name to my post right after you quote it.

 

Yes, sorry for my mistake. I should check the manual, but as I reinstalled the windows, I didn't have it here, but as you can see here the MWS is on the pylons. Interesting

No worries, you could know only if you followed the dev threads.

I was not 100% sure we have it but it seems the Mirage version of DCS had it, the devs told they would implement it.

 

With fox 1's the radar frequency will change and become tied exclusively to the specific missile when it is launched. This is to insure that when multiple aircraft in the same flight for instance launch missiles at seperate aircraft at the same time, their missiles wont accidentally home in on their wingmans target. This change in frequency from STT to launch is detectable by RWR, and hence a launch warning

Good stuff!

Regarding RWR, I'm not very familiar with the Mirage's and it doesn't seem to detect the launch of SARH.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, and there is nothing in tje manual yet about it.

~Snip

Regarding RWR, I'm not very familiar with the Mirage's and it doesn't seem to detect the launch of SARH.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, and there is nothing in tje manual yet about it.

 

That's just down to the aircraft being incomplete at the moment. It should be able to detect missile launches in the same way that the Eagle does, but currently that is not implemented. As for the A-10C style MAWS, whether or not our version of the Mirage is capable of using that is up for debate. Last I heard/read it was a no. Although I'd like to hope that changes :P

 

Edit: Scratch that, looks like we will be getting it on the Mirage!

Edited February 19, 2016 by AussieGhost789

That's just down to the aircraft being incomplete at the moment. It should be able to detect missile launches in the same way that the Eagle does, but currently that is not implemented. As for the A-10C style MAWS, whether or not our version of the Mirage is capable of using that is up for debate. Last I heard/read it was a no. Although I'd like to hope that changes :P

 

It will change: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=160943

 

;)

That's just down to the aircraft being incomplete at the moment. It should be able to detect missile launches in the same way that the Eagle does, but currently that is not implemented. As for the A-10C style MAWS, whether or not our version of the Mirage is capable of using that is up for debate. Last I heard/read it was a no. Although I'd like to hope that changes :P

 

Fingers crossed ;)

 

What is MAWS' detection range? I don't know if it can detect a long distance (e.g. BVR) missile launch.

As the dev said, it's not implemented yet, I was flying the Flanker against two friends flying the Mirage, I used almost everytime the R-27ET and they had no warnings. That was funny, one of my best moments on 1.5. :D

Fingers crossed ;)

 

What is MAWS' detection range? I don't know if it can detect a long distance (e.g. BVR) missile launch.

 

At least in the A-10C it detects missiles quite far away. Like 20km+ I guess (not sure, I've never tested it, the range, but it's very cool.)

As for MWS, AFAIK IRL it has always been a crap shoot. It was designed to detect the IR signature emissions and smoke trails from incomming missiles to give an alert to the pilot, however this system is inherently flawed as plenty of possibilities exist to give false returns (i.e. nearby aircraft flares, unguided sam launches etc...) AFAIK this system is all but obsolete on any fast movers. Maybe useful on the hog though...

It will change: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=160943

 

;)

 

Hooray! :D

You do know that a Fox 1 is SARH? Fox 2 is infra-red. Most fighter aircraft (that i know of) have abilities to detect Fox 1 launches from the point they are fired.

 

 

my bad. got confused and thought fox 1 was IR.

As for MWS, AFAIK IRL it has always been a crap shoot. It was designed to detect the IR signature emissions and smoke trails from incomming missiles to give an alert to the pilot, however this system is inherently flawed as plenty of possibilities exist to give false returns (i.e. nearby aircraft flares, unguided sam launches etc...) AFAIK this system is all but obsolete on any fast movers. Maybe useful on the hog though...

 

What it's really looking for is a bright flare IR, and then little to no bearing changes, which means the missile is tracking you. However, this is why a wingman flying close shooting a mav will cause the system to register a false positive.

 

Since I know a bit about radar, some of the differences between the modes:

 

RWS: The reason why you'd use this over TWS is that in RWS, you can pick up contacts faster, because you're not trying to build enough information to develop a solid track. If you get lucky and a target pops up over a ridge, then dives back down, this mode will see him if it's looking at the right time, while TWS doesn't see it long enough to develop a track and just drops it.

 

TWS: This analyzes the doppler frequency changes of the transmit pulse over a period of time to build a track to tell you the heading of each contact on your scope. However, you have to have the target stay in the detection zone longer before seeing a display. The upside is, it can build an accurate enough track to launch an AIM-120 without having to fundamentally change the signal from RWS, so enemy RWRs don't know if they've even been launched on, and only find out when the missile itself goes active.

 

STT: Here, the radar is putting out more pulses than the other two modes, which RWRs can pick up on, and determine that you've locked onto them and warn the pilot. More EM at the target, means more EM returning, means more accurate track data to guide missiles.

 

"Guidance Mode": Not something you actively switch to, but what the radar does to guide a missile. By now you want literal moment to moment tracking of the target because you're either guiding a missile, or it's SARH, and needs your radar to bounce off the target to know where it is. The F-15C doesn't need to do this for AIM-120s, but all the other jets and the F-15C for the AIM-7 have to.

 

While spoofing seems like a good idea against a specific target, to make it think you launched on it, you're guaranteed to end up with a counter fire against you, or at the very least you've completely given away your intent and position. You're better off firing a real missile. Also, pilots are already task saturated enough, and giving them a tool by which they could use it, and they themselves -think- they launched a missile is just asking for trouble. No one uses blanks in ground combat, why do the same thing in air combat? A SAM does it, it's asking for a retaliatory ARM strike. Again, better off launching a real missile.

 

The only thing a spoof mode is good for is training.

Su27 has no active missiles. The F15 has the 120s. The migs have theirs but I don't know Russian weapons to be able to name it.

 

I believe the R77 is the mig 29 ARH missile. However only the S has it not the G or the A.

I am totally puzzled

 

How is a targeted plane alerted of a Fox 1 type missile launch? To my understanding, the RWS alerts the pilot when an hostile radar is locked at him/her. But this locking phase happens prior to the launch. How can the RWS know the missile has been actually launched?

 

No worries, I can explain.

 

Real life RWRs sense a LOT of signals in a wartime environment and it is the intention of the engineers to have as few false alarms as possible in their system, while still providing indications and warning to the pilot of an immediate threat. In order to meet this standard, criteria must be met for the system to declare a threat.

 

Based on what I have observed in game, and what I know about radar theory, this is the criteria I believe exists.

 

For detection of SARH missile launch:

1.the RWR must sense that a has it's ownship aircraft locked on to by a threat radar that can support a SARH missile. (that means the RWR senses that the amplitude of the threat signal is steady, indicating that the threat radar is staring at it, and not just scanning around. STT vice RWS/TWS) (if the amplitude is fluctuating in and out, that is a good sign that the radar is scanning around and not focused on you)

 

2. The RWR must sense that a guidance datalink signal is active and coming from the same direction in space as the threat radar locking it. (the guidance signal exists to support the SARH missile with target range and aspect, as well as direct the missile when its seeker is out of range from sensing the reflected illumination from the target)

 

Both of these are required to give the pilot the missile launch indication from a SARH missile. In some cases the radar's waveform changes to a continuous wave instead of a pulsed signal.. this will also queue the RWR to the missile launch, but not all radars do this.

 

In some cases, such as FLOOD mode, SARH missiles can be launched without a datalink to support it. Though in these cases the target has to be close enough for the seeker to pick up the reflections immediately, and has to be close enough to not have to fly in a lead pursuit in order to reach its target. In these cases, SARH launches wont be detected because only 1 of the two criteria was met.

 

For detection of a Active Missile:

 

1. Identify that the signal you are receiving matches the parametric values (RF, PRF, PW, Scan, etc.) of a known missile seeker radar. (note: missile seekers look different from fighter radars)

 

Pretty simple, right? If you see a signal that looks like it could match a missile seeker, alarm the pilot.

 

What's more interesting though, is why the RWR doesn't go off when the Active Missile is launched. As many know, the 120 has a datalink. But if my criteria for SARH launch detection is right, seeing a datalink while not being locked on to does not fit into launch warning criteria. This is because in a real life scenario, RWRs will see alot of fighter radars and datalinks coming from many different angles, and without that criteria you'd have false alarms going off all the time.

 

So what if you launch a 120 while in STT, will the enemy be alerted right at launch, as there is both a lock tone and a datalink? the answer is YES. and your indications will make it seem as if it was a SARH missile, until the Seeker on the 120 goes active.

Conversely, a Fox 3 type missile has its own radar tracking system, and the target plane should get a warning only when the missile has locked. However it seems that in DCS, at least to my experience, the missile is detected as soon as it is launched.

If you are launching the 120 in STT, yes the enemy will detect it. Launching in TWS wont alert them until the seeker goes active.

 

TWS: This analyzes the doppler frequency changes of the transmit pulse over a period of time to build a track to tell you the heading of each contact on your scope. However, you have to have the target stay in the detection zone longer before seeing a display. The upside is, it can build an accurate enough track to launch an AIM-120 without having to fundamentally change the signal from RWS, so enemy RWRs don't know if they've even been launched on, and only find out when the missile itself goes active.

Your not wrong here, but as you specified doppler processing for just this mode, I just wanted to clarify that every mode on this radar set uses pulse doppler processing, not just TWS.

More specifically, TWS gathers all of the data(including doppler shift) it can on a series of returns from a single contact and uses this pattern to predict the position and velocity of the target for the next time the beam sweeps that area of space.

STT: Here, the radar is putting out more pulses than the other two modes, which RWRs can pick up on, and determine that you've locked onto them and warn the pilot. More EM at the target, means more EM returning, means more accurate track data to guide missiles.

STT does not put out more pulses.. the Pulse Repetition frequency or PRF, can be the same for TWS, RWS and STT.. The difference with STT, is that your antenna stops scanning a volume of space, and instead stares at the specified target, tracking it via a monopulse receiver. (4 quadrant receiver that measures phase and amplitude differences in order to determine angle of arrival)

 

The only thing a spoof mode is good for is training.

Haha, says who? It'd be extremely useful in a scenario where you are outnumbered, and wish to have a portion of the opponents wing-men defending.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Beamscanner

With fox 1's the radar frequency will change and become tied exclusively to the specific missile when it is launched. This is to insure that when multiple aircraft in the same flight for instance launch missiles at seperate aircraft at the same time, their missiles wont accidentally home in on their wingmans target. This change in frequency from STT to launch is detectable by RWR, and hence a launch warning

 

Using a SARH requires a CW illuminator for guiding the missiles, which is only activated once the missile is launched, hence the RWR can pick up the CW emissions.

 

STT requires mainly either a narrow beamwidth and/or increased gain, which could be detected by the RWR complex.

Edited December 29, 2016 by SaNdMaN_9118

Wow this clarifies a lot.

This shows me why exactly the 120 is so deadly.

For some reason i thought the Su27 had an active

Radar missle. (In DCS I mean)

I didnt know the 15 had a "monopoly" on this advantage.