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Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9


gregzagk

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EGI needs 4 minutes to align, if you do it properly. But then I don't know if that impacts precision of JDAMs.

 

Not if you do the fast align, then EGI aligns in less time than it takes to arm the plane and remove half the fuel.

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Mirages getting airbourne at server start before strikers and helos is part of the sillyness that needs to be addressed. The top dog fighter in Blue Flag is the Mirage why it doesn't have the same empty tank as the F-15 and Su27 is strange after all the fuel was put in place to stop fighter spam but now we have Mirage spam.

 

I'd love to see guys that call the Flanker an arcade plane take it up against the Mirage in Blue Flag. They don't realise how easy the Mirage is in this scenario and for some reason think flying the Mirage is complex and takes some special talent, do me a favour with this bs, it probably has one of the easiest FMs in DCS and has some cushy scripted auto lock features as well as a buggy really low heat signature against eos and ir missiles, a buggy radar that sees the range of jamming targets and while the damage model has improved it is still suspect like the MiG29. You won't find much over done with the Flanker in fact you'll find it has more restrictive modelling in its make up.

 

The Mirage is a great module and a welcome addition but a small portion of the pilots that fly it in DCS really do suffer from grandeur.

"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

51st PVO "BISONS"

Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10

https://100kiap.org

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Mirages getting airbourne at server start before strikers and helos is part of the sillyness that needs to be addressed. The top dog fighter in Blue Flag is the Mirage why it doesn't have the same empty tank as the F-15 and Su27 is strange after all the fuel was put in place to stop fighter spam but now we have Mirage spam.

 

I'd love to see guys that call the Flanker an arcade plane take it up against the Mirage in Blue Flag. They don't realise how easy the Mirage is in this scenario and for some reason think flying the Mirage is complex and takes some special talent, do me a favour with this bs, it probably has one of the easiest FMs in DCS and has some cushy scripted auto lock features as well as a buggy really low heat signature against eos and ir missiles, a buggy radar that sees the range of jamming targets and while the damage model has improved it is still suspect like the MiG29. You won't find much over done with the Flanker in fact you'll find it has more restrictive modelling in its make up.

 

The Mirage is a great module and a welcome addition but a small portion of the pilots that fly it in DCS really do suffer from grandeur.

 

Take it easy.

 

And for the 100th time, removing fuel from the M2k will barely change anything as it can fuel during start up and needs way less than the FC3 planes. By the time start up is done you're almost good to go.


Edited by iLOVEwindmills
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Mirages getting airbourne at server start before strikers and helos is part of the sillyness that needs to be addressed. The top dog fighter in Blue Flag is the Mirage why it doesn't have the same empty tank as the F-15 and Su27 is strange after all the fuel was put in place to stop fighter spam but now we have Mirage spam.

 

I'd love to see guys that call the Flanker an arcade plane take it up against the Mirage in Blue Flag. They don't realise how easy the Mirage is in this scenario and for some reason think flying the Mirage is complex and takes some special talent, do me a favour with this bs, it probably has one of the easiest FMs in DCS and has some cushy scripted auto lock features as well as a buggy really low heat signature against eos and ir missiles, a buggy radar that sees the range of jamming targets and while the damage model has improved it is still suspect like the MiG29. You won't find much over done with the Flanker in fact you'll find it has more restrictive modelling in its make up.

 

The Mirage is a great module and a welcome addition but a small portion of the pilots that fly it in DCS really do suffer from grandeur.

 

 

You won't stop fighter spam, you just delay it by at most a few minutes, either way, by adding / removing the startup refuel. Only way to stop fighter spam is to limit fighter slots to some maximum.

 

As to the relative virtues of flying the Flanker vs Mirage, besides the bugs, that's just how it is. Going without Fox 3 missiles against a more modern fighter is going to be tough. The Eagle pilots have a similar problem against red mirages. You have a really large armament to make up for it though. Mirage is quick to get into the air but we all know how many missiles needs to be fired on Blue Flag, especially later in a session, to actually hit a target, and the M2000 runs out very quickly unless you're lucky. Its a piece of piss to fly though, agreed, and I think the real one is too.

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Mirages getting airbourne at server start before strikers and helos is part of the sillyness that needs to be addressed. The top dog fighter in Blue Flag is the Mirage why it doesn't have the same empty tank as the F-15 and Su27 is strange after all the fuel was put in place to stop fighter spam but now we have Mirage spam.

 

I'd love to see guys that call the Flanker an arcade plane take it up against the Mirage in Blue Flag. They don't realise how easy the Mirage is in this scenario and for some reason think flying the Mirage is complex and takes some special talent, do me a favour with this bs, it probably has one of the easiest FMs in DCS and has some cushy scripted auto lock features as well as a buggy really low heat signature against eos and ir missiles, a buggy radar that sees the range of jamming targets and while the damage model has improved it is still suspect like the MiG29. You won't find much over done with the Flanker in fact you'll find it has more restrictive modelling in its make up.

 

The Mirage is a great module and a welcome addition but a small portion of the pilots that fly it in DCS really do suffer from grandeur.

 

Can we break this down a bit?

 

- cushy scripted auto lock features - what do you mean?

- buggy really low heat signature against eos - compared to what? those huge fire spitting f15 engines?

- ir missiles - really? i have no issues blowing them up with IR

- a buggy radar that sees the range of jamming targets - is this not burn through like everyone gets?

 

Now if these are bugs that exist on the Razbam M2k page then I apologise but i've not experienced any of these issues you talk about.

 

I will agree that the FM was bad and is getting better, that being said its hard to compare against when its pretty much the only fully modelled fighter. is the A10 broken because it can take a pounding?

 

To be honest, my advice would be:

- if you dont like how buddyspike run the server then dont play it

- If you feel these are bugs with the m2k get the evidence and send it to Razbam.

 

The only thing they could do to slow the startup is force alignment but then people will still just align in the air, buttom line is it starts quicker but BOTH sides get it so the problem cancels itself out.....

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Can we break this down a bit?

 

- cushy scripted auto lock features - what do you mean?

- buggy really low heat signature against eos - compared to what? those huge fire spitting f15 engines?

- ir missiles - really? i have no issues blowing them up with IR

- a buggy radar that sees the range of jamming targets - is this not burn through like everyone gets?

 

Now if these are bugs that exist on the Razbam M2k page then I apologise but i've not experienced any of these issues you talk about.

 

 

Autolock reaquires targets instantly there is no scan, there are pros and cons to this though.

The heat signature of the Mirage is really low as in A-10 range.

80nm is not burnthrough, the HUD tape reads the range the radar doesn't, it's been reported for a while.

 

To be honest, my advice would be:

- if you dont like how buddyspike run the server then dont play it

- If you feel these are bugs with the m2k get the evidence and send it to Razbam.

My advice would be to read posts properly before responding.

I never said I don't like how BS run their servers, thankfully they are open to suggestions and apart from the last few months of down time, they have consistently listened to their fans and acted upon issues.

The main beef with my posting was the claim that FC3 aircraft are arcade and in someway so much easier.

 

The only thing they could do to slow the startup is force alignment but then people will still just align in the air, buttom line is it starts quicker but BOTH sides get it so the problem cancels itself out.....

Mirage start up takes well under 2 mins, with refuelling it takes 4 mins. That right there is a longer process is it not.

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"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

51st PVO "BISONS"

Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10

https://100kiap.org

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The Mirage should have the same fuel restriction on startup that all the other fighters have, even if it does not delay its take off for as long as the F-15, Mig-29 or SU-27. The spirt of the rule is to keep a defender from spamming defending fighters by forcing them to refuel. Since the Mirage is a fighter is should fall under this same rule.

 

In the same sense that the FC3 pilots don’t like their aircraft being called arcade, the Mirage pilots (me being one of them) don’t like the exaggerations about its abilities, comments about bugs that are long fixed or “how easy it is in the scenario”, which is just a bunch of BS. The plane set and weapon set is well balanced in BF with each of the fighters having a certain advantage. The F-15 has the best radar, the SU-27 and Mig 29 have the best IR missiles and system to employ them, the Mirage has the best BVR capability. The idea that the Mirage is Uber or easy compared to the other fighters has as much credibility as saying the FC3 fighters are arcade.

 

JD

 

AKA_MattE

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The Mirage should have the same fuel restriction on startup that all the other fighters have, even if it does not delay its take off for as long as the F-15, Mig-29 or SU-27. The spirt of the rule is to keep a defender from spamming defending fighters by forcing them to refuel.

 

It already doesn't really do this with the 27 at 20% something fuel and the 15C with externals. Only reason you need to take off that quick is when spamming point defense, and there the low fuel is actually an advantage.

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Autolock reaquires targets instantly there is no scan, there are pros and cons to this though.

The heat signature of the Mirage is really low as in A-10 range.

80nm is not burnthrough, the HUD tape reads the range the radar doesn't, it's been reported for a while.

 

Yeah the CCM modes have some quirks both positive and negative.

 

The Heat signature is low, but not THAT low. The A10 has some modifier of 0.4 iirc @max thrust.

 

The Flanker has in full AB modifier of 4, dry its 1.

F15 has full ab modifier of 3.92 in dry its 1 or 0.9 as well iirc.

 

The Mirage hass a full AB modifier of 1.7 and dry its 0.7 or 8 iirc.

 

Just looking at the amount of thrust, so throwing fuel burn for thurst efficiency out of the window for the moment, its kinda reasonable numbers, relative to each other.

 

The absolute detection ranges against it might be off in IR spectrum.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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The idea behind the fuel was not to stop defenders spamming but to slow the constant stream of attacking fighters.

 

Turned out not to be a real issue with the m2k so might as well give the FC3 planes some more fuel so they don't have to wait so ridiculously long. At least to the point they can compare to the M2k time to get into the air.

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Turned out not to be a real issue with the m2k so might as well give the FC3 planes some more fuel so they don't have to wait so ridiculously long. At least to the point they can compare to the M2k time to get into the air.

Out of my (flanker) cockpit it pretty much looks like a constant stream of Mirages so I don’t know how you conclude that it is not a real issue?

 

Mirage start up takes well under 2 mins, with refuelling it takes 4 mins. That right there is a longer process is it not.

 

Well, when that’s the case I would say spawning the Mirage with empty fuel tanks is a fair (and easy) solution…

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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There is an issue, it's that the FC3 planes need to fuel for so long that you can be airborne and a good deal underway to the target in the m2k by the time they start taxiing. Not to mention staring at your fuel gauge going up for 7/8 mins is the definition of boring. If they don't have to do that, there will at least be a reason to take the 15 or the 27 over the m2k.

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530 is still superior to AIM7. Also the M2K has plenty of edges over the FC3 planes, the fuel issue does not need to be stacked on top of this.

 

 

 

Right, that's why I advocated for 70% of fuel to make the start up times about similar. This should actually nerf the FC3 ability to do instant vertical take off that the 27 can do with 20% fuel and 15 with fuel tanks only.

 

It doesn't bother me that you can be airborne quick, it bothers me that the FC3 planes need to sit and snore for 7 some minutes for no reason. While there is no real gameplay or balance reason for it.

 

There is an issue, it's that the FC3 planes need to fuel for so long that you can be airborne and a good deal underway to the target in the m2k by the time they start taxiing. Not to mention staring at your fuel gauge going up for 7/8 mins is the definition of boring. If they don't have to do that, there will at least be a reason to take the 15 or the 27 over the m2k.

Of course there is a gameplay and balance reason for having to refuel when shot down...it's your punishment for dying. It's simulating to whoever shot you down the absence of opposition because they established air superiority for a stage of the ongoing fight.

 

Negate your absence with a 2 minute Mirage take-off and it makes the fact that you got killed almost null and void. Why does it make sense that someone would have to shoot you down 4 times in a 6 hour period to REALLY gain air superiority enough to open a window for their team to achieve something?

 

Strict penalties for death makes for much more interesting gameplay. That's why I imagine most play on Blue Flag. If getting shot down didn't suck or sucked less on this server, we'd be playing a clone of 104th or OpenConflict (not that those servers are bad, it's just a different type of gameplay).

 

Maybe you're just not into what Blue Flag is trying to simulate?

 

Also, I don't understand the logic regarding adding fueling to the Mirage...it doesn't take as long as the F15/Su27 so don't even try? How is that a better solution than at least doing something?


Edited by AbortedMan
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Of course there is a gameplay and balance reason for having to refuel when shot down...it's your punishment for dying. It's simulating to whoever shot you down the absence of opposition because they established air superiority for a stage of the ongoing fight.

 

Negate your absence with a 2 minute Mirage take-off and it makes the fact that you got killed almost null and void. Why does it make sense that someone would have to shoot you down 4 times in a 6 hour period to REALLY gain air superiority enough to open a window for their team to achieve something?

 

Strict penalties for death makes for much more interesting gameplay. That's why I imagine most play on Blue Flag. If getting shot down didn't suck or sucked less on this server, we'd be playing a clone of 104th or OpenConflict (not that those servers are bad, it's just a different type of gameplay).

 

Maybe you're just not into what Blue Flag is trying to simulate?

 

Also, I don't understand the logic regarding adding fueling to the Mirage...it doesn't take as long as the F15/Su27 so don't even try? How is that a better solution than at least doing something?

 

Because there is a better solution.

 

Maybe you're just not into what Blue Flag is trying to simulate?
I care about the dynamic nature of it, the deeper longer term positioning/strategy/planning that is offered by blue flag and no other server. An environment that enables making all machines viable, not just the ones that fling the most of the best missiles and encourages them to cooperate to achieve the best results.

 

If penalties do not contribute to improving the gameplay/immersion in an observable, concrete way then I see no value in retaining it. As I explained I see these things as hurting variety and choice, actually detracting from the experience.

 

The fuel issues with the mirage and the imbalance have little to do with realism, the fact that the FC3 planes can't fuel/arm while engines running/starting has nothing to do with realism. These are completely arbitrary mechanics but unfortunately they have an impact on the game. These are compensated with arbitrary mechanics to try and improve the situation. That airbases have limited slots, that different bases have different planes, that helis have more lives, that the live count is 4 and not 6 or 2. These are all gameplay factors that are not really realistic, but are there to guide things towards becoming more realistic even though they are wholly arbitrary numbers.

 

Just saying that 'more' refuel/rearm time leads to things being more realistic is not really true. It's not real life and whether you want it or not we are working within tons of constrictions. For instance, would 2 life cap lead to people behaving more realistic and thus improving the experience? Or 1 life every 6 hours? Probably not.

 

This is a long winded way of saying that you can't just look at 'is this realistic or not', you have judge these things by how they will actually play out in the game and what consequences they have. Often times a 'realistic' measure can lead less realism and worse gameplay to boot.

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You're the only one talking about realism.

 

I want a kill on a Mirage opponent to have more of an impact than delaying their push for ~3 minutes. This is coming from me, mainly Mirage player, mind you.

 

If you kill any plane he needs to make the journey again towards whatever base he was pushing. That's usually way more significant than either the fuel time on the FC3 planes or an empty mirage.

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If you kill any plane he needs to make the journey again towards whatever base he was pushing. That's usually way more significant than either the fuel time on the FC3 planes or an empty mirage.

 

But not significant enough, otherwise I wouldn't be on this thread and have people agreeing with me.

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If you manage to die often enough that these 5 minute timers actually matter more than your flight time towards the target then you would be out of lives before half a round is over anyway.

 

Anyway, I don't really care if people agree with you or not, I care about your arguments. If we're doing it like that there's not much to discuss about.


Edited by iLOVEwindmills
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I thought SU25T was needed for sead thats a fc3 crapcraft to, Then mirage woyld just dominate. Server full of M 2000s lol Greg strip it all back to basic round one they were amazing. And took well into a week to win with a back and fourth flowing tide across the map

 

I don't think it's an aircraft issue. It's that at any given time, it's 12 vs 2. And people who join mid round jump on the winning side. I'm glad to see red finally win, but now they are winning just for the same reasons blue was - sheer numbers.

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I think a lot of people are trying to join the team that needs more people to balance the scale, more so because they want to have people to fly against, but without anyone coordinating everyone's efforts and no central place to see where the team populations are on an average night they find themselves in a lopsided situation.

 

A web-based roster or registration to display how many chose which team for a mission cycle would fix a lot of problems, but that may be asking a lot.

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Yeah, it would be cool to see a graph, for the current round, of the number of active players for every 5 minutes, from the time the round started. That would show if one side has more people online, on average.

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