Sabre versus WWII fighters - how to defeat an aware enemy?

For background, I've been flying sims since Microsoft Flight Simulator on the original Mac. I have particularly fond memories of Chuck Yeager's Air Combat back in the early 1990s. One of my favorite challenges back then was setting up a bunch of Me-109s or Fw-190s and then practicing Boom-and-Zoom tactics in the F-86 Sabre.

I've been looking forward to doing the same here in DCS in a much more realistically modeled simulator. Figured I'd start with just a single WWII warbird and learn how to defeat it using the superior technology of the swept-wing jet era. Having flown the three WWII planes in DCS prior to starting the F-86, I setup against what I've found to be the weakest of the three: the Fw 190D-9. Gave it an Excellent AI and set a head-on fight.

To my surprise, I've now flown multiple battles and only defeated the Dora once. Most of the time, I run out of gas and have to disengage. Given the great advantages of the Sabre, this is not what I was expecting. Yes, it's clearly the pilot who's at fault, but I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Here's what I do:

1. Head-on pass, go full power on the Sabre, jink a little to avoid lucky head-on shot from Dora

2. Pull back and zoom climb as we pass to get altitude and energy advantage.

3. Pull out several thousand feet above the D-9

4. Watch as the Dora struggles to climb up towards me, often shuddering near stall but never stalling out or falling back, always in control

5. At some point, I slice nose low and let speed build up to 300+ kts (knowing the Sabre 6-3 wing isn't good at low speed). My theory is to to use my superior energy to do a sustained high-G turn while the Dora is struggling at slow speeds and can't easily turn.

So far so good in theory.

What happens next is puzzling. The Excellent AI Dora somehow seems to recover energy quickly and begins turning across the circle as I come down to keep out of my gunsights. It then begins to do amazing zoom climbs that I can't follow, even though I've kept my airspeed above 300 kts. It reaches the top of its zooms, stalls out and then comes down cutting across my circle.

Having flown the D-9 myself, I don't understand how it has such power or slow-speed maneuverability. My experience of getting the Dora high and slow was that it was very sluggish. When I've tried to follow superior energy fighters in WWII warbirds, I lose energy so I can't turn easily.

SO...

Is this just a property of the Excellent AI using the SFM? That it has excess energy or maneuverability that simply isn't historically accurate? If not, how do other Sabre pilots defeat these WWII warbirds once you've established a superior altitude/energy position?

The planes in DCS might be more "realistically modelled", but the AI flight and damage modelling is still comparable to late 1990s-early 2000s sims at best. Not surprising, given the fact that quite a bit of the code dates back to these times actually.

DCS is not really well geared towards offline experience with non-modern planes at the moment. While we're waiting for revised damage modelling of WWII planes, advertized and being worked on (hopefully with some improvements in AI!), You'll get a little bit more plausible results with lower AI skill settings. Don't expect much, though.

Yeah. What Art-J says. The SFM and the ability of the AI pilot to work on the edge, coupled with perfect vision, means the lil bugger can do things without a whole lot of errors to work out. WE, however, have to battle the AI and our own little mistakes or misjudgements, and that leads to an accumulation of errors the AI can use against us.

Set him to something other than excellent. Unless he is Darkraiderss or DavidRed, excellent isn't something you want to practice against.

Oh, yeah, the damage model is garbage, even in MP. More so in SP. You likely have killed him many times but didn't know it because both the pilot and the plane are ZOMBIES. (Head shot required)

I too am hoping the new damage model goes a long way to offsetting the problem of the AI using the SFM and being able to do things we can't.

Hopefully it won't be too long now.

Thanks all for the responses. I've flown several missions against High AI instead of Excellent and it makes a big difference. Now the fight feels more the way I was expecting. I can't be sloppy, but the superior energy of the Sabre is easier to exploit.

Definitely looking forward to further refinements to AI and damage model in the coming years.

For background, I've been flying sims since Microsoft Flight Simulator on the original Mac. I have particularly fond memories of Chuck Yeager's Air Combat back in the early 1990s. One of my favorite challenges back then was setting up a bunch of Me-109s or Fw-190s and then practicing Boom-and-Zoom tactics in the F-86 Sabre.

 

I've been looking forward to doing the same here in DCS in a much more realistically modeled simulator. Figured I'd start with just a single WWII warbird and learn how to defeat it using the superior technology of the swept-wing jet era. Having flown the three WWII planes in DCS prior to starting the F-86, I setup against what I've found to be the weakest of the three: the Fw 190D-9. Gave it an Excellent AI and set a head-on fight.

 

To my surprise, I've now flown multiple battles and only defeated the Dora once. Most of the time, I run out of gas and have to disengage. Given the great advantages of the Sabre, this is not what I was expecting. Yes, it's clearly the pilot who's at fault, but I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

 

Here's what I do:

 

1. Head-on pass, go full power on the Sabre, jink a little to avoid lucky head-on shot from Dora

2. Pull back and zoom climb as we pass to get altitude and energy advantage.

3. Pull out several thousand feet above the D-9

4. Watch as the Dora struggles to climb up towards me, often shuddering near stall but never stalling out or falling back, always in control

5. At some point, I slice nose low and let speed build up to 300+ kts (knowing the Sabre 6-3 wing isn't good at low speed). My theory is to to use my superior energy to do a sustained high-G turn while the Dora is struggling at slow speeds and can't easily turn.

 

So far so good in theory.

 

What happens next is puzzling. The Excellent AI Dora somehow seems to recover energy quickly and begins turning across the circle as I come down to keep out of my gunsights. It then begins to do amazing zoom climbs that I can't follow, even though I've kept my airspeed above 300 kts. It reaches the top of its zooms, stalls out and then comes down cutting across my circle.

 

Having flown the D-9 myself, I don't understand how it has such power or slow-speed maneuverability. My experience of getting the Dora high and slow was that it was very sluggish. When I've tried to follow superior energy fighters in WWII warbirds, I lose energy so I can't turn easily.

 

SO...

 

Is this just a property of the Excellent AI using the SFM? That it has excess energy or maneuverability that simply isn't historically accurate? If not, how do other Sabre pilots defeat these WWII warbirds once you've established a superior altitude/energy position?

Agree with this and what's been said re AI damage and AI ability.

I don't play multiplayer player, so the AI is vital for my experience. With the soon to be released Normandy map I am anticipating re creating D-Day and subsequent battles. Many of the air to air encounters were very brief and resulted in the FW190's/109's retreating on many occasions. There is no way to simulate the AI doing this, unless you add factors into the AI mission, that causes them to RTB when Winchester or Bingo.

I am awaiting Normandy and in the meantime having fun with dissimilar air combat!:D The Sabre is (for me) the weakest "Jet" to fight a FW or 109. The 50 Cal's appear to be completely ineffective (when I do get any hits?:smilewink: As for the 1st generation sidewinders, well they just don't lock. Zoom and boom should work with the Sabre, alas I usually go Winchester and leave the AI FW pilots laughing at me:megalol: So apart from it's air to ground ability, the Sabre is not the dogfighter I had hoped for.

More fun with trying the Mirage against a pair of FW's. But interestingly I have the best experience with the Mig 21. Cannons (HE and AP mix) cut the WW2 aircraft in half and the missiles lock well. The Mig accelerates faster than anything else and the way it bleeds airspeed in a +7 g turn can be useful against the FW AI!:smilewink:

The Spit v FW/109's is the "realistic" option, however I load the AI with 30% ammo and RTB them when Winchester. To try to recreate the "skirmishes"". As for the Mustang, well in my experience, it does not compare with the Spitfire, either in handling or firepower. History tells me that once the Merlin was fitted to the Mustang, it was at least equal to the Spit. I do not find this is so.

Anyway, here's to D-Day and Tally Ho!

Cheers

David