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Flight Model Change in 8/15 Open Beta update?


San Patricio

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I'm not sure how to describe it, but it seems the instantaneous rate has gone up while the sustained rate has gone a bit down. I'm probably wrong though

 

No, I think you've described it well. Energy bleed in turns below 400 kts seems really excessive now. Though it feels more like inst. rate is the same while sust. has dropped. Not sure...and I could be off base anyway. Again, this latest FM iteration may be morerealistic, but it sucks as the low speed handling was/is one of the few things the Hornet has going for it (minus 9x w/ HMD :)) in wvr dogfighting.


Edited by wilbur81

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I find there is much more inertia in the airplane response to power application.. especially throttling down, the airplane doesnt lose altitude as immediately as it used to do.

(talking about landing operations)

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I really dislike excessive pitch up moment on roll out.

 

me too. requires throttling down really early before the roll out and a prompt reapplication of power afterward.

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So my having issues keeping the nose from rising to 30° after dropping gear and flaps is an issue with the FM?

 

If not, how is the pilot supposed to bleed off the excess speed while keeping the plane from rocketing up 500 ft before he has to turn for final approach?

 

Speedbrakes and G's

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No, I think you've described it well. Energy bleed in turns below 400 kts seems really excessive now. Though it feels more like inst. rate is the same while sust. has dropped. Not sure...and I could be off base anyway. Again, this latest FM iteration may be morerealistic, but it sucks as the low speed handling was/is one of the few things the Hornet has going for it (minus 9x w/ HMD :)) in wvr dogfighting.

 

Oh so I'm not alone.. maybe IvanK could give us some feedback if this is a side-effect of other modifications or intended.

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Indeed. With every flight I'm amazed at the loss (and strangeness) of low speed performance. It's like the a/c center of gravity has moved really far back. Before this week's update, I could get down to 90 (ish) knots and still fly/recover the aircraft at airshow altitudes. Not so any more. I've also found that I now have to enter a gunzo engagement at F-15C-like air speeds. Before, I'd try to enter the merge around 360 - 390 kts range. Now, those air speeds are too slow.

 

It also seems like adverse yaw oscillations are WAY more pronounced. Again, keeping the nose on the horizon during hard turns has become pretty difficult and the nose wobbles back and forth a lot more during those turns.

 

Just being a 'squeaky' wheel until the Devs say "We've got it like Real Life now" or "We are aware and going to fix it." :thumbup:

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me too. requires throttling down really early before the roll out and a prompt reapplication of power afterward.

 

It’s how it actually is, it’s called the wings level transition. With the reorientation of the lift vector vertically, you have a higher vertical component of lift. Only way to counter that and keep the nose from coming up at the start is to throttle back prior to rolling wings level.

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Not so sure what the issues are here. Slow speed handling (Dev version) I can still easily get controllable 50deg Stabilized AOA. On the deck at 360Kts can sustain 7.5G+ till the fuel runs out. at 15K 360Kts sustain 6.9G

 

 

As to nose wandering in hard level turns again not seeing this. within reason I can easily hold the VV on the horizon.

 

 

I am unaware of any significant recent changes to the FM In Flaps Auto

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...I am unaware of any significant recent changes to the FM In Flaps Auto

 

I've just had a chance to put "this" Hornet through some very wild maneuvering, mostly in UA and... I'm happy. Try a slicing turn from … say 480 kts, bleed off to 200 then kick the opposite (upward) rudder and flip the darn thing around:D I tried this and other wild stuff before and it wasn't that pronounced... I love it so far! Perhaps there are no changes and I'm just too happy today lol... either way, looking forward to more testing later.

Oh, 4c=Cola if you're talking about rolling out from high g turn you have to unload aggressively before the roll out if you don't want to balloon... correct IvanK?

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Not so sure what the issues are here. Slow speed handling (Dev version) I can still easily get controllable 50deg Stabilized AOA. On the deck at 360Kts can sustain 7.5G+ till the fuel runs out. at 15K 360Kts sustain 6.9G

 

 

As to nose wandering in hard level turns again not seeing this. within reason I can easily hold the VV on the horizon.

 

With some practice on the new FM, I will be able to achieve this too. I guess my question is, are you noting the difference b/w the latest FM and the one before this past Wednesday's BETA update? When you're sustaining 7.5+ on the deck at 360 kts, how much stick deflection? I'm just seeing a significant change and wondering if it is getting closer to the real jet/and if others are noticing or I'm imagining. :-)

 

*Update* - Here's a track of me trying your on the deck break turn, trying to sustain 7.5 g at or around 360-70ish knots. Not happening. This was a clean hornet with only pylons and 75% fuel. Make sure you watch (if u have time :-)) with the controls indicator on. Notice I never go max stick deflection because the drag was going to win out. (I dont have j-stick curves either). I only achieve 7.5 g for a brief period. Before the latest update, Im pretty sure your sustained 7.5g down low was easily achievable. Now, not as much.

 

[ATTACH]192246[/ATTACH]


Edited by wilbur81

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With some practice on the new FM, I will be able to achieve this too. I guess my question is, are you noting the difference b/w the latest FM and the one before this past Wednesday's BETA update? When you're sustaining 7.5+ on the deck at 360 kts, how much stick deflection? I'm just seeing a significant change and wondering if it is getting closer to the real jet/and if others are noticing or I'm imagining. :-)

 

*Update* - Here's a track of me trying your on the deck break turn, trying to sustain 7.5 g at or around 360-70ish knots. Not happening. This was a clean hornet with only pylons and 75% fuel. Make sure you watch (if u have time :-)) with the controls indicator on. Notice I never go max stick deflection because the drag was going to win out. (I dont have j-stick curves either). I only achieve 7.5 g for a brief period. Before the latest update, Im pretty sure your sustained 7.5g down low was easily achievable. Now, not as much.

 

[ATTACH]192246[/ATTACH]

 

Wilbur81, I can duplicate everything IvanK said and more. To be honest... I don't want to fly around at 7.5 g for 20 min. I want to rate the nose at a maddening pace and employ weapons... kinda like a real Hornet or Rhino and as far as I'm concerned this part of the FM is spot on!

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It’s how it actually is, it’s called the wings level transition. With the reorientation of the lift vector vertically, you have a higher vertical component of lift. Only way to counter that and keep the nose from coming up at the start is to throttle back prior to rolling wings level.
Wings level transition does explains why the pitch soars during roll out. I equally had to negate this excessive pitch by throttling to idle and reintroducing power to maintain acceptable altitude.

I have issues with the exact speed to deploy landing gear and full flaps. Going dirty at speed around 250knt which is standard produces high pitch that takes the aircraft out of the 600feets required altitude. I would have to apply substantial forward stick pressure to fight the pitching so can l start trimming for AOA.

 

 

Going dirty at speed between 170knts and 190knt seems to help against the high pitch and quickly catch the aircraft around 135k and 140knts.

 

The once fast fall out the sky gear drag seem to have reduced but full flap induced pitch is there enough to tangle with for me.

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Wilbur81, I can duplicate everything IvanK said and more. To be honest... I don't want to fly around at 7.5 g for 20 min. I want to rate the nose at a maddening pace and employ weapons... kinda like a real Hornet or Rhino and as far as I'm concerned this part of the FM is spot on!

 

You using the latest update? If so, track please? Who wants to fly around at 7.5 g for 20 min? The question here is about FM changes and an (apparent) loss of performance. Show me a flat level turn on the deck at 370 ish kts maintaining 7.5 g. Here are the parameters for your track: :-)

 

- Clean jet (with wing pylons)

- 75 % fuel

- Under 500 ft MSL

- Keep the jet under 390 kts and over 360 kts

- Maintain 7.5 g's throughout at least 360 degrees of turn

- must be using the latest update

- Good luck. :-)

 

PS - I feel like Reggie giving Notcher and Doug the parameters for flyn' the Snake. Be with us, Chappie!


Edited by wilbur81

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Wings level transition does explains why the pitch soars during roll out. I equally had to negate this excessive pitch by throttling to idle and reintroducing power to maintain acceptable altitude.

I have issues with the exact speed to deploy landing gear and full flaps. Going dirty at speed around 250knt which is standard produces high pitch that takes the aircraft out of the 600feets required altitude. I would have to apply substantial forward stick pressure to fight the pitching so can l start trimming for AOA.

 

 

Going dirty at speed between 170knts and 190knt seems to help against the high pitch and quickly catch the aircraft around 135k and 140knts.

 

The once fast fall out the sky gear drag seem to have reduced but full flap induced pitch is there enough to tangle with for me.

 

I drop the gear while still in the break:huh:, flap down just after rollout, have no issues when rolling out. The only issue I have is my stubbornness to break just past the bow. If I don't descend to 600 in the break (making air boss mad:mad:) I have to drop the nose on the roll out quite a bit to be on the numbers at 180.

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You using the latest update? If so, track please? Who wants to fly around at 7.5 g for 20 min? The question here is about FM changes and an (apparent) loss of performance. Show me a flat level turn on the deck at 370 ish kts maintaining 7.5 g. Here are the parameters for your track: :-)

 

- Clean jet (with wing pylons)

- 75 % fuel

- Under 500 ft MSL

- Keep the jet under 390 kts and over 360 kts

- Maintain 7.5 g's throughout at least 360 degrees of turn

- must be using the latest update

- Good luck. :-)

 

I hate tracks... I'll shoot a vid when I get a chance showing a closeup of stores page, fuel, etc. and give it a shot. For me the "change" (perceived or real, lol) is for the better.

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I hate tracks... I'll shoot a vid when I get a chance showing a closeup of stores page, fuel, etc. and give it a shot. For me the "change" (perceived or real, lol) is for the better.

 

Agreed... I hate tracks, too. And I think there are flight regimes where the FM tweaking is improved, but I'm just struggling with the WVR, Gunzo-type flying characteristics that seemed to have diminished after the last update.

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You using the latest update? If so, track please? Who wants to fly around at 7.5 g for 20 min? The question here is about FM changes and an (apparent) loss of performance. Show me a flat level turn on the deck at 370 ish kts maintaining 7.5 g. Here are the parameters for your track: :-)

 

- Clean jet (with wing pylons)

- 75 % fuel

- Under 500 ft MSL

- Keep the jet under 390 kts and over 360 kts

- Maintain 7.5 g's throughout at least 360 degrees of turn

- must be using the latest update

- Good luck. :-)

 

PS - I feel like Reggie giving Notcher and Doug the parameters for flyn' the Snake. Be with us, Chappie!

 

Seems pretty close to me?

 

"Maintain 7.5 g's throughout at least 360 degrees of turn?"

 

Can you post the chart stats for this test please, I cannot find any. Only what Curly posted.

 

Edit: I see Ivan posted that:thumbup: I will try again tomorrow.


Edited by David OC

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The FM was also changed a couple of updates ago and didnt remember so many people talking about it.

 

The increased "wobble" and roll "instability" feels correct to me, before it felt too "perfect" or artificial now the plane feels in general snappier with slightly more pitch authority. I have no numbers nor in depth info but according to videos the latest FM feels quite close except in extreme low speed-out of the envelope maneuvers where I would love to know (once for all) if the version simulated is capable of performing some of the maneuvers performed in these videos or there is some software updates in these hornets in order to enable them:

 

Here at 1:26:

 

 

I know Matt made a video doing this but while i could get closer to what you can see on the video, its still quite far from the footage...the plane seems to lack that final tail "drift"...at very low speed it seems like that final "push" is not possible, like the horizontal stabs dont want to deflect enough. I tried at a variety of fuel configs and speeds.

 

Another maneuver that I cant replicate is one even showed in the DCS hornet flight demo at 1:30:

 

 

Here is in real life (3:27):

 

 

While I get close I cant manage to make it as "aggresively" as shown in the videos, again, the final "tail drift" rotation to almost zero speed is much slower and the rotated angle not so big in DCS. I thought it could also be the camera angle but after LOTS of different viewing angles I definitely cant perform that maneuver in that way. In DCS the Hornet wants to continue the loop in a "circle" way instead of "breaking" the loop and suddenly set itself at 90º with respect the followed trajectory in the last second.

 

Also, I wonder if that last bit of performance is lost because the NO PYLONS FM is not yet present?...any info about the state of this configuration's FM would be great.

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Agreed... I hate tracks, too. And I think there are flight regimes where the FM tweaking is improved, but I'm just struggling with the WVR, Gunzo-type flying characteristics that seemed to have diminished after the last update.

 

All right wilbur81, you made me stumble on an issue with engine thrust above 420~450 kts entry.

If you enter the turn (7.5g - full stick) at this a/s with full blowers the a/s actually increased after 10 ~ 20 sec. NO BLACKOUT! :D Someone above my "paygrade" needs to look at this.

 

When entering the turn at 380kts, it bleeds quickly and I was able to maintain 320-ish sustained with about 3/4 stick deflection and close to 6g. (about right for the Hornet, isn't it?)

 

I made a vid in VR so wait for the closeups to see the HUD numbers clearly. The first turn shows entry at 380, the second turn started above 420kts or so. At the end of the vid I switched to external view to show that shutting down the burners did not cause any significant loss of power while still turning at 7.5g:huh:. Feels nice but it's a WIP.

 

https://youtu.be/2H7njHvcha8

 

PS. Question: If you use missions created before updating to newer versions of DCS there are no "adverse" effects, am I correct?


Edited by Gripes323
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When entering the turn at 380kts, it bleeds quickly and I was able to maintain 320-ish sustained with about 3/4 stick deflection and close to 6g.

 

Yeah, that's the issue that I'm stuck on. Before this last update, 380/390 kts seemed like the sweet spot for a nice, hard, max performance turn with relatively little airspeed degradation (when pretty clean on stores). Now, it just bleeds SO rapidly, even without max stick deflection. You're right on the 420-450 kt turn entrance, but that seems to me more like an F-15 area of excellence, not the Hornet which is touted for its fantastic turning at slow speeds. Again, I think the new flight model is great at higher speeds... just doesn't seem very Hornet-y. :-)

"PS. Question: If you use missions created before updating to newer versions of DCS there are no "adverse" effects, am I correct?"

 

Good question. Not sure, so, to be safe, I tested with a newly created mission. Thanks for trying this out and taking the time to make the vid.:thumbup: Not sure if you watched my track, but it illustrates why I'm questioning IvanK's earlier claim that:

"On the deck at 360Kts I can sustain 7.5G+ till the fuel runs out."

 

That just doesn't seem possible with this latest FM update.


Edited by wilbur81

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