Rudder a bit too effective? - ED Forums
 


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Old 10-10-2019, 05:55 PM   #1
Flanker35M
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Default Rudder a bit too effective?

Salute!

Started flying the Kurfürst campaign, seems nice even AI is clunky and had to turn wake turbulence off as bomber formations turned game into a slideshow But to the point and asking here. I tested to fly around first, to get a feel on the Kurfie. Is a handful. While testing I noticed I can roll the plane with rudder only, no other input needed. And I mean it rolls well too around it´s axis. Equivalent to using ailerons, same precision albeit a bit slower. This same thing was the cause of 109 wobbliness in an another flight sim, which was rectified. Any comments on this? I am on latest open beta 2.5.5.36986.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:12 PM   #2
grafspee
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Originally Posted by Flanker35M View Post
Salute!

Started flying the Kurfürst campaign, seems nice even AI is clunky and had to turn wake turbulence off as bomber formations turned game into a slideshow But to the point and asking here. I tested to fly around first, to get a feel on the Kurfie. Is a handful. While testing I noticed I can roll the plane with rudder only, no other input needed. And I mean it rolls well too around it´s axis. Equivalent to using ailerons, same precision albeit a bit slower. This same thing was the cause of 109 wobbliness in an another flight sim, which was rectified. Any comments on this? I am on latest open beta 2.5.5.36986.
In those planes rudder has strong roll authority, you can even land this plane using rudder and elevator only.
Btw 109 has the weakest rudder of all warbirds in dcs

Last edited by grafspee; 10-10-2019 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:44 PM   #3
Ala13_ManOWar
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Some people complain it's not effective enough .


S!
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:48 PM   #4
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Some people complain it's not effective enough .


S!
The same thing is with trim sensitivity, some ppl complain that is too big other ppl complain that is too small
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:25 PM   #5
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S!

The rudder causes the 109 to be excessively wobbly. Even from slightest input to right causes the plane to wobble and lift nose + initiates a roll. By slight I mean that you see the input. To left same thing but a bit less. This pitch up/wobble and roll feature of rudder makes taking off like you jump off the runway and wobble like sitting on a ball. Was just asking if someone has noticed this as well?
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:19 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Flanker35M View Post
S!

The rudder causes the 109 to be excessively wobbly. Even from slightest input to right causes the plane to wobble and lift nose + initiates a roll. By slight I mean that you see the input. To left same thing but a bit less. This pitch up/wobble and roll feature of rudder makes taking off like you jump off the runway and wobble like sitting on a ball. Was just asking if someone has noticed this as well?
This sounds like an accurate re-creation of flight dynamics and p-factor to me . Roll is induced on rudder application because opposite wing develops mor lift as it swings around the longitudinal axis , while the other wing develops less lift for the same reason .

Likewise , the propeller yawing relative to the airflow will induce a pitch axis change , and conversely , a pitch axis change will induce yaw .

There is a very old book titled "Stick and Rudder" by Langweische that i highly recommend . It remains probably the single most important work on how to fly an aircraft ever written , and details these and other aerodynamic effects . I even learned from it how to spot where your touchdown point will be-on the downwind leg !
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Flanker35M View Post
S!

The rudder causes the 109 to be excessively wobbly. Even from slightest input to right causes the plane to wobble and lift nose + initiates a roll. By slight I mean that you see the input. To left same thing but a bit less. This pitch up/wobble and roll feature of rudder makes taking off like you jump off the runway and wobble like sitting on a ball. Was just asking if someone has noticed this as well?
yes i noticed it, but this is how it works, during take off pilot have to know exactly what do in certain part of take off only then take off will be smooth
if pilot is reacting to what is happening it will be to late and will end up with excessive corrections leading to aplified oscilactions leading to crash some time.
Take some practise and your take offs and landings will be smooth. High power tail draggers are extremly hard to handle on the ground.

Last edited by grafspee; 10-10-2019 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flanker35M View Post
S!

The rudder causes the 109 to be excessively wobbly. Even from slightest input to right causes the plane to wobble and lift nose + initiates a roll. By slight I mean that you see the input. To left same thing but a bit less. This pitch up/wobble and roll feature of rudder makes taking off like you jump off the runway and wobble like sitting on a ball. Was just asking if someone has noticed this as well?
The problem with that kind of "feel" is everyone has a different one depending on hardware used, to start with, controls settings, and everything.


IRL many aircraft are like that indeed, just the controls are stiff enough so you don't overcommand hence a perfect simulation of the real response in a module would be too sensitive with regular PC hardware and maybe something like what you mention is the result. You can try using curves (which makes it to be felt somewhat stiffer), or making your rudder pedals physically stiffer in any way you can and see if the control gets better with that.



S!
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Old 10-11-2019, 03:41 AM   #9
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Yep, what Manowar says. My solution was curves, since I've flown the Hip a lot as well and took the centering spring away in order to make the pedals respond correctly.
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Old 10-11-2019, 07:26 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
IRL many aircraft are like that indeed, just the controls are stiff enough so you don't overcommand hence a perfect simulation of the real response in a module would be too sensitive with regular PC hardware and maybe something like what you mention is the result. You can try using curves (which makes it to be felt somewhat stiffer), or making your rudder pedals physically stiffer in any way you can and see if the control gets better with that.

S!
Over commanding is a problem IRL too, at low speed controls arent stiff enough to prevent from overcommanding.
In DCS you need good curves and just some practice and everything goes smooth.
And Bf-109 was hard to handle on the ground, during t/o or landing it was very tricky to handle.
But bf109 has ineffective rudder at low speed so i dont know why someone complain that is too effective
When i t/o i use full rudder to keep is straight gradually adding power to no go beyond rudder control range.

Last edited by grafspee; 10-11-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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