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ECM pod


macrossMX

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Because the F-16C we'll be getting is a USAF/ANG variant, it will use an ECM pod.

 

What bothers me is why the USAF insist on leaving the F-16 with an externally mounted ECM pod while other countries have their F-16 with the ECM built internally.

 

I cannot find any article on why the USAF insist on having the F-16 mount the ECM externally, but one theory I can assume is that it would be easier and cost effective to just install a new ECM pod once the old one becomes obsolete.

 

But that does not explain why the F-15C and F-15E have their ECM built into the plane while the F-16 has theirs externally. Can someone present me an article as to why the USAF would make such a decision.

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Because the eagle was designed with room and cooling capability for its ECM system. The f16 was simply not designed to host it's ECM inside the airframe.

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Because the F-16C we'll be getting is a USAF/ANG variant, it will use an ECM pod.

 

What bothers me is why the USAF insist on leaving the F-16 with an externally mounted ECM pod while other countries have their F-16 with the ECM built internally.

 

I cannot find any article on why the USAF insist on having the F-16 mount the ECM externally, but one theory I can assume is that it would be easier and cost effective to just install a new ECM pod once the old one becomes obsolete.

 

But that does not explain why the F-15C and F-15E have their ECM built into the plane while the F-16 has theirs externally. Can someone present me an article as to why the USAF would make such a decision.

 

Perhaps it's simply for maintenance. Easier to swap a bad pod for good one than down an entire jet for non functioning ECM gear.

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The USAF Vipers are far from the only ones carrying external ECM pods, I'd say it's more common to carry pods than to have it internally.

 

It's a bit like asking, why doesn't the USAF use dragchutes when other countries do? It's quite simple really, different countries, different needs.

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If not needed ;) From the piont you are calculating with troubles you take it with you. Same as wing tanks.. a center line tank is okay for training, there you do not need the ECM on center, if needed you can carry them on 3/7. But if you plan to fight, 2 370tanks are always with you. They also help you at bad landings ;)

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If not, when/why wouldn't they?

 

Probability of threat e.g no AA opposition or radar-guided SAMs in the target area? Or perhaps if dedicated ECM aircraft e.g. EA-18G or EA-6B are fragged to cover the F-16C package?

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The USAF doesn't use the F-16 as an air superiority fighter, while other operators do. The US F-16s are almost exclusively used as a SEAD/Strike platform in actual combat.

 

In the counter air role having external pods becomes a performance concern, Because they would need to be mounted on the center-line station for symmetry reasons taking the place of a fuel tank that now has to be mounted on the wings, and then needs to be jettisoned before combat (whereas a center-line tank wouldn't), creating fuel problems. Having the ECM built in simplifies stores loading for those kinds of missions.

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My guess would be that USAF Vipers will typically operate with a dedicated EW platform in the area, either USMC Prowlers and/or USN Growlers etc. IIRC only a couple of other countries that have Vipers also have a dedicated EW aircraft. Because of that they dont need the weight of added ECM gear internally and can add a pod as needed.

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So if what wizard say is true about the degrading performance of mounting a jammer pod for A2A missions, that would mean the majority of the time, the F-16 will fly either with a clean belly or mount a belly tank in order to reduce drag when the fight gets close and personal.

 

Then again considering that jammers simulated in DCS is the equivalent of pointing a giant flashlight in the direction of the plane locking on to you, I doubt having an ECM pod or ECM in general for an offensive air superiority mission would do you any good.

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So if what wizard say is true about the degrading performance of mounting a jammer pod for A2A missions, that would mean the majority of the time, the F-16 will fly either with a clean belly or mount a belly tank in order to reduce drag when the fight gets close and personal.

 

Then again considering that jammers simulated in DCS is the equivalent of pointing a giant flashlight in the direction of the plane locking on to you, I doubt having an ECM pod or ECM in general for an offensive air superiority mission would do you any good.

 

 

It would degrade performance if it was mounted on the wing, because it would produce an asymmetric loading which is a no no for ACM therefore you'd have to put it on 5 in place of a tank, which means wing tanks instead, also a no no for ACM, however the pod on the center station wouldn't really hinder performance. (the center tank is rated for 9Gs and the drag penalty is acceptable for that kind of combat I'm sure the pods are too) but by having it on 5 you'd end up in a situation in which you'd need to pickle the tanks and risk running out of fuel. Not a very smart way to deploy the aircraft, at least from an offensive counter air standpoint, used defensively its a different story.

 

But it all comes down to how the jet is used. That's probably why nations with less diverse air forces that depend on the F-16s versatility a lot more, opted for onboard ECM equipment. In any case way if the mission allows for it, you'd probably want to take the pod with you. Otherwise your going to be at a disadvantage in the EW environment.


Edited by Wizard_03

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Does anyone know whether the internal ECM some Vipers have has the same capabilities as the 131/181 pod (not sure which one we use).

 

I do not think you will hear an correct answer somewhere here on this board or on any other public location… even the implementation of the RWR-function in 99,5% of all public is not how it is in real life, it is a big cheat box that works fine for us but does not effect the real life. Same es you will never get a real simulation if the E/A-18G Growler of something else likte this bird….

 

EW-topics are always something you can burn your fingers very fast if you know details of systems so you better keep in general thinking and confirm anything they talk about :lol:

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The USAF doesn't use the F-16 as an air superiority fighter, while other operators do. The US F-16s are almost exclusively used as a SEAD/Strike platform in actual combat.

 

In the counter air role having external pods becomes a performance concern, Because they would need to be mounted on the center-line station for symmetry reasons taking the place of a fuel tank that now has to be mounted on the wings, and then needs to be jettisoned before combat (whereas a center-line tank wouldn't), creating fuel problems. Having the ECM built in simplifies stores loading for those kinds of missions.

 

Neither did the Navy ever really use the legacy Hornet as a air superiority platform ( particularly back in the day when they had the F14's), but ECM is integrated into the Hornet anyways.

 

 

But you know considering how few F15's there are relative to F16's, sending F16's to support Eagle's AS missions isn't unfathomable.

 

BUt even so, if the F16 has historically been used more for A/G in the USAF, its radar is aged, and its lacking a moving map. I was surprised had also neglected to update its radars. a 2007 ( and apparently even to present day) USAF based blk 50 are still using 1992 AN/APG 68 v5 radar, that lacks SAR grade mapping capability, and is only able to support HPRF waveforms in velocity search limiting max detection range in RWS and TWS. Even though there were plans at some point the result USAF not upgrading the radar like allies which had it by 2000's/ with export F16's. This results in having a inferior ( and dated) as well as the USN Hornets sporting the AN/APG 73 phase 2. AN/APG 68 v9 would have been closest contemporary.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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Ya know another thing to consider is why and when the F-16 was developed. It was developed as a lightweight fighter...definitely NOT a "Real" fighter like the F-15 was and the fighter mafia at the time was very very protective of their turf.

 

The podibility it didn't get a built in jammer as a way to separate it from the F-15 is not at all unrealistic.

 

Now that being said...there is only so much space in an airframe...onboard jamming might be nice but it takes up space and weight that can be used for other things if a jammer is not needed.

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Ya know another thing to consider is why and when the F-16 was developed. It was developed as a lightweight fighter...definitely NOT a "Real" fighter like the F-15 was and the fighter mafia at the time was very very protective of their turf.

 

The podibility it didn't get a built in jammer as a way to separate it from the F-15 is not at all unrealistic.

 

Now that being said...there is only so much space in an airframe...onboard jamming might be nice but it takes up space and weight that can be used for other things if a jammer is not needed.

 

Honestly the day the first F16A blocks went into production, it was already against what the FM wanted. Day fighter only ( no radar) 2 wingtip heatseakers, No A/G role capacity.

 

 

F16A included a multimode Radar AN/APG 66, and ability to carry various A/G stores ( even if most ordinance type were unguided), and could hold up to 6 total IR missiles , 4 of which would be carried in under wing points. Followed in by the F16C block 25 a few years later, that added UP front control panel, and Multi Purpose displays, and a further improved radar ; the AN/APG68. With further F16C blocks precision strike capabilities only further increased. Due to Amraam developmental delays it was left without Medium range missile, but would have had it earlier had Amraam's development been finished earlier, or had USAF actually been decisive on integrating AIm7 for the F16C's given said delays. The Fighter mafia dislike the F16C service even more, but honestly its this versatility of being a multi mission fighter, with targeting sensors, and various guided munitions that made the F16 so successful in its versatility. many of the countries that had earlier F16A blocks, eventually received the "MId life updates" which included many similarities to a F16C's( post ccip).

 

IF anything one could attempt to make a case that there was a hidden agenda to not include Aim7's as a interim solution for F16's until aim120's were ready only because USAF wanted to defend funding for the F15 until production was complete, rather than kneeling to the Fighter mafias whims. besides had the USAF actually done what the FM wanted which would have made the F16 a niche aircraft in its time period as it was becoming exceedingly clear all the benefits various sensors and new avionics could make, that raw aircraft performance no longer would dictate or be the most domineering aspect in a fight. Something that was solidified in the 1991 gulf war, after which the fighter mafia lost any remaining credibility.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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EW-topics are always something you can burn your fingers very fast if you know details of systems so you better keep in general thinking and confirm anything they talk about :lol:

 

Yeah, I was mostly just interested in knowing whether the internal ECM suite is just the same stuff as the pod but mounted within the airframe or if it's an entirely unique system they developed for those Vipers. I'm not expecting to see any kind of serious ECM simulation within the game for the foreseeable future so exact capabilities aren't really relevant.

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In many operations, OCA and DCA, the pod is not needed. It weights 800 lb. That means 800 lbs of fuel or 800 lb lighter a/c. There is a special USAF version of F-16C blk 50, the C/J. Which is a SEAD specialist . AFRES/ANG F-16 squadrons are CAS tasked, not OCA. CAS generally occurs in radar threat free/suppressed environment.

I happen to agree with you. Israeli F-16I and UAE F-16E Block60 , carries ECM in the dorsal spine.

 

ALQ-131 imposes CAT2 stores 6 G limit.

 

Also USAF has sacrificed many a program to support F-35A acquisition. Even F-15E, which is supposed to fly until 2040's has been lagging an update. But USAF brass believes that anything not Gen 5 and stealthy is not a worthwhile investment. NATO F-16 operators are following likewise. Even Poland is getting 100 F-35A to replace F-16C BK50. Greeks are another issue. They are happy with 50/52+ new build F-16C. Turkey's F-35A programme is a mess, due to politics and Turkish regime treachery.

USMC has sacrificed F/A-18C/D upgrades and F/A-18E/F squadrons to assure funding of F-35B.

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In many operations, OCA and DCA, the pod is not needed. It weights 800 lb. That means 800 lbs of fuel or 800 lb lighter a/c. There is a special USAF version of F-16C blk 50, the C/J. Which is a SEAD specialist . AFRES/ANG F-16 squadrons are CAS tasked, not OCA. CAS generally occurs in radar threat free/suppressed environment.

I happen to agree with you. Israeli F-16I and UAE F-16E Block60 , carries ECM in the dorsal spine.

 

ALQ-131 imposes CAT2 stores 6 G limit.

 

Also USAF has sacrificed many a program to support F-35A acquisition. Even F-15E, which is supposed to fly until 2040's has been lagging an update. But USAF brass believes that anything not Gen 5 and stealthy is not a worthwhile investment. NATO F-16 operators are following likewise. Even Poland is getting 100 F-35A to replace F-16C BK50. Greeks are another issue. They are happy with 50/52+ new build F-16C. Turkey's F-35A programme is a mess, due to politics and Turkish regime treachery.

USMC has sacrificed F/A-18C/D upgrades and F/A-18E/F squadrons to assure funding of F-35B.

 

 

 

Minus modern single piece touchscreen displays as shown in the proposed f15x The f15e is not really put of date. For a gen 4 ac.

 

They have been upgraded a few years ago with AESA radars, and UFCD.

 

Marines are actually investing money to keep thier legacy Hornets relevant due having opted out super Hornets

 

Multiple fa18c's have gone through restructuring program along with some avionics update have been re designated f18c+ and more recently many outlets covering defense topics have reported that marines are upgrading Hornets with an/apg79 asea radar in use on super hornets. TO add F16's are being upgraded today for the ones currently serving in ANG, and as more F16s get handed down after being replaced with F35's. Already some F16C's in ANG are upgraded with Central panel MFD ( like in block 70) and 72 F16s are slated to recieve AESA AN/APG83 radars.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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An Internal Jammer was part of the main US F-16 dev program from the late 1970s and F-16s had provisions and bits added specifically for it in the early to mid 1980s. The USAF pulled out in 89 as is known but the system did eventually go into some export F-16s in the late 1990s.

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