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Aim-9 Seeker Circle - Lags TD Box / Jumps to Nearby Unintended Target


GrEaSeLiTeNiN

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Hi,

 

Open Beta latest patch (7 Jul) - After Aim-9 acquires target in ACM mode (constant tone), the missile's seeker circle is not quite in the centre of the TD box in a turning dogfight - sort of lagging behind a little. When straight on behind target, the seeker circle it is nicely in the TD box. Could it be that this 'lag' happens because in a turning fight, the missile's seeker is at its FOV limits but still able to lock on? I did not uncage the Aim-9 because it uncages automatically when ACM locks up the target.

 

Update 1: Aim-9 seeker circle also has tendency to jump to nearby unintended target even when ACM has locked up desired target. For comparison, this does not happen in BMS 4.33 F-16.

 

Update 2: Post Update 7 + Hotfix - Same problem. See track file.


Edited by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

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Yeah... the 9 seeks heat and the radar seeks CS. The heat is behind the CS.

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...is there a slave-to-radar mode? Gets a little annoying when you ACM boresight a target and the Aim-9 seeker auto uncages and locks it up nicely, then it suddenly decides to lock up another target nearby. Or worse still, you ACM boresight a target but the Aim-9 seeker locks up the one next to it.

 

If your AIM-9 seeker is not tracking your Radar target you can double press the cage/uncage button, the seeker will get caged and with the second press it will get slaved to your Radar target.

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If your AIM-9 seeker is not tracking your Radar target you can double press the cage/uncage button, the seeker will get caged and with the second press it will get slaved to your Radar target.

 

 

That may fix it temporarily but the seeker appears to have a mind of its own and could switch to another nearby heat source. I've tested it. I would be surprised if it is like this in real life as you could end up shooting a friendly. I think it needs fixing.

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the seeker appears to have a mind of its own and could switch to another nearby heat source. I've tested it. I would be surprised if it is like this in real life as you could end up shooting a friendly.

 

If it didn't happen sometimes, flares wouldn't work - ever...

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Can't watch the track sadly, but we are talking a missile that according to legend was originally designed with the "electronic complexity of a table model radio and the mechanical complexity of a washing machine". The ones the Hornet uses are a bit more sophisticated, but only just.

 

 

So I ran the test myself and did observe the missile seeming to switch tracks on me despite the radar having a lock. The scenario was very quick however, where the seeker head would point at the radar, then quickly switch over to a second, nearby target. To be fair, the radar-locked target was almost abeam, while the second target was dead rear aspect. At a tangent, I did notice that in the AA Gun & Sidewinders instant action, IR Cool seems to be off by default. Unsure if this is affecting the test, or if it's even modeled.

 

 

I'm guessing the seeker head looked in the direction of the radar when it was uncaged, saw both targets, and picked the one it could see more clearly (stronger heat signature). Doesn't seem too unusual for a Sidewinder, this is roughly the same deal that causes it to go after flares. The only question I have is if this is normal behavior, are AIM-9Ms supposed to hard slave their seeker heads to where the radar is pointed in this mode? Or do they just look in that direction and acquire a target independently as they would normally?


Edited by Lancel
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I'm guessing the seeker head looked in the direction of the radar when it was uncaged, saw both targets, and picked the one it could see more clearly (stronger heat signature). Doesn't seem too unusual for a Sidewinder, this is roughly the same deal that causes it to go after flares. The only question I have is if this is normal behavior, are AIM-9Ms supposed to hard slave their seeker heads to where the radar is pointed in this mode? Or do they just look in that direction and acquire a target independently as they would normally?

 

Yes, I wonder too if that is how it works in a real F/A-18C. I brought this up because the F-16 (in that other sim) doesn't exhibit this type of behaviour. I'm fine if that's how the F/A-18C does it IRL. I just think it's a little dangerous if you are helping out a friendly who has a bandit on him. Also, the behaviour goes against the pilot's intention - imagine he ACM locks a target but the Aim-9 seeker chooses another or worse still jumps to another. That's can't be right IRL.

 

I get that flares and hence a friendly's heat signature can spoof the Aim-9 but shouldn't that happen only after the Aim-9 leaves the rail? I think IRL the Aim-9 should hard slave to the ACM radar lock while it is still on the rail because the ACM lock would be the pilot's intended target. I doubt the pilot would want to ACM lock one target but shoot another selected by the Aim-9 seeker, or spend precious dogfight time trying to get the Aim-9 seeker to 'behave' before he fires it.

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...I just think it's a little dangerous if you are helping out a friendly who has a bandit on him. Also, the behaviour goes against the pilot's intention - imagine he ACM locks a target but the Aim-9 seeker chooses another or worse still jumps to another. That's can't be right IRL...

And why not? The Aim-9 is an IR missile and not a Radar guided. If you have 2 or more targets close to eachother, you see the RADAR returns on your scope, you pick a target with your Radar and lock it. If you fire a Radar guided missile it will know which target you are "talking" about out of the group, because you told him which one in the "same language" - Radar. If you lock the same target but use an Aim-9, all you do is "taking your hands" and force his head in the direction you want him to look, you are speaking two different languages and don't understand eachother. It's up to the IR missile seeker if it can/will see your locked target - which you want him to see - or if it's looking in the direction and says "I see more than one target and i pick this one, it's nice and shiny and alot hotter than the other".

 

This behaviour will probably improve with the Aim-9X, because the IR seeker is more complex/modern.

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No Rdr LOS is different to Seeker LOS depending on intercept geom. Its like this in the Real jet. The separation in fact confirms that the missile is in self track and not just being slaved by the radar

 

How come the missile is in self track when it has not been uncaged?

 

I mean, if the missile is slaved (caged) to the radar, it should not self track until it is uncaged. If it was uncaged it should not follow the radar in the first place but search on its own for heat signatures.

 

EDIT: corrected grammar


Edited by escaner

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I just think it's a little dangerous if you are helping out a friendly who has a bandit on him. Also, the behaviour goes against the pilot's intention - imagine he ACM locks a target but the Aim-9 seeker chooses another or worse still jumps to another. That's can't be right IRL.

 

That is exactly what could happen if you launch a missile caged to the radar once it leaves the rail. This is why pilots are taught to uncage the seeker before launching: to make sure that the seeker is tracking and make sure that it is tracking the correct target.

 

What I don't understand, as I said in my previous post, is how the missile can be caged to the radar and uncaged to find different heat sources at the same time.

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And why not? The Aim-9 is an IR missile and not a Radar guided. If you have 2 or more targets close to eachother, you see the RADAR returns on your scope, you pick a target with your Radar and lock it. If you fire a Radar guided missile it will know which target you are "talking" about out of the group, because you told him which one in the "same language" - Radar. If you lock the same target but use an Aim-9, all you do is "taking your hands" and force his head in the direction you want him to look, you are speaking two different languages and don't understand eachother. It's up to the IR missile seeker if it can/will see your locked target - which you want him to see - or if it's looking in the direction and says "I see more than one target and i pick this one, it's nice and shiny and alot hotter than the other".

 

This behaviour will probably improve with the Aim-9X, because the IR seeker is more complex/modern.

 

If that's true then 'slave' has lost its meaning/purpose and pilots would avoid using the Aim-9 at a target that is anywhere near a friendly. I doubt the avionics and weapons systems are made this careless IRL for safety reasons. But it would be interesting if someone could show real life footage of this. I don't recall having seen this type of behaviour in the F-16 (sim). Hence my query.

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That is exactly what could happen if you launch a missile caged to the radar once it leaves the rail. This is why pilots are taught to uncage the seeker before launching: to make sure that the seeker is tracking and make sure that it is tracking the correct target.

 

What I don't understand, as I said in my previous post, is how the missile can be caged to the radar and uncaged to find different heat sources at the same time.

 

 

 

My understanding is that the Aim-9 uncages itself automatically to follow any ACM lock whenever ACM is used. This was mentioned in the sidewinder YouTube video tutorial by Grim Reapers. I suppose this is the slave mode although there isn't actually a slave button option on the DDI. The sidewinder can only remain caged in a no radar mode or when the ACM hasn't locked up a target. I'm inclined to think the sidewinder's current behaviour where it's seeker occasionally disobeys ACM lock while still on the rail is WIP and not true IRL.

 

(In the F-16 (sim), there are slave and boresight options in the MFD for the sidewinder. The former does exactly what one would expect it to while the latter slaves the seeker to the HMCS. No jumping behaviour in either option was observed.)

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IRL (30 years ago). With AIM9 selected any time radar is in STT the seeker head is slaved to the radar LOS (TD) box. Until the seeker goes in to self track the AIM9 seeker circle will be displayed exactly inside the TD box. After certain tracking criteria are met the AIM 9 will automatically go into self track. This is indicated by the Seeker circle being displayed independently of the TD box ... though of course they will be very close together.

 

 

There is/was no Auto scan AIM 9 mode per see in the Hornet. The missile is either caged to the AIM9 boresight or positioned by the Radar till self track is achieved. Alternatly you can place the seeker circle in boresight over the target then uncage to force Self track.

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IRL (30 years ago). With AIM9 selected any time radar is in STT the seeker head is slaved to the radar LOS (TD) box. Until the seeker goes in to self track the AIM9 seeker circle will be displayed exactly inside the TD box. After certain tracking criteria are met the AIM 9 will automatically go into self track. This is indicated by the Seeker circle being displayed independently of the TD box ... though of course they will be very close together.

 

 

There is/was no Auto scan AIM 9 mode per see in the Hornet. The missile is either caged to the AIM9 boresight or positioned by the Radar till self track is achieved. Alternatly you can place the seeker circle in boresight over the target then uncage to force Self track.

 

 

 

Thanks for the interesting insight. So, IRL during an ACM/STT lock when the sidewinder is still on the rail, can the seeker jump to another target before and/or during self track mode? I would think the radar should be able to keep the seeker focused on the STT target while the missile is still on the rail. But after the missile leaves the rail in self-track mode, its ability to stay on the intended target would then depend, I suppose, on how advanced the missile seeker is.

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"can the seeker jump to another target before and/or during self track mode?"

 

Theoretically no. The checks and balances in the self track process from a slaved lock include reasonably strict angular checks comparing both IR and Radar lines of sight.

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IRL (30 years ago). With AIM9 selected any time radar is in STT the seeker head is slaved to the radar LOS (TD) box. Until the seeker goes in to self track the AIM9 seeker circle will be displayed exactly inside the TD box. After certain tracking criteria are met the AIM 9 will automatically go into self track. This is indicated by the Seeker circle being displayed independently of the TD box ... though of course they will be very close together.

 

There is/was no Auto scan AIM 9 mode per see in the Hornet. The missile is either caged to the AIM9 boresight or positioned by the Radar till self track is achieved. Alternatly you can place the seeker circle in boresight over the target then uncage to force Self track.

 

Very interesting, IvanK. In this video, at 39:13 just after the Fox 3 callout with STT lock, there are multiple unsuccessful uncages and re-slaves of the AIM-9 with the seeker just tracking dirt every time.

 

 

Those are automatic uncages or there is also a manual uncage feature from the radar slave situation?

 

Currently in the sim, with STT and the AIM-9 seeker on the TD box (not self tracking yet), when I press uncage the seeker goes to boresight, but I cannot uncage the seeker from that situation as you say. A new uncage button press re-slaves the seeker to the TD box. In the previous video the guy does the uncage/re-slave procedure quickly without the boresight step.

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This thread reminded me of messing around in MP the other week, then checking the Tacview recently.

 

This is a real good example when "not to fire" an AIM-9....LOL:D

 

Yes, I was on the bad side here stirring trouble in the red J-11A (Testing R-77's etc). This guy's got a terrible wingman, would have been nice and funny to have their teamspeak coms.:)

 

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