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On 10/2/2021 at 8:24 AM, St4rgun said:

Actually ED shared progress on this topic at the very moment they announced it can be expected in Q3 2021.

Right now the "we are not ready to share any news yet" standrard reply template IS the biggest news: it means it's not ready, because Q3 is over.

 

The community never wanted to write the ETA for the devs, it would be insane. They're just asking for rough estimates.

Sometimes ED gives estimates, sometimes they misses them.

 

But it's always much better to correct yourself and give a new estimate according to your best actual knowledge on the topic.

Not an exact date, but a ballpark.

 

Why?

 

Because it's the polite way if the community asks for it.

 

I'm sure, that responsible people like us who are working as developers themselves on different projects in the world won't be upset if a deadline is missed and should be corrected.

But the radio silence and lack of communication is never a good path.

 

Some has missing them....

Quote

The beginning of the year seems to be posing many of the same challenges, but the team is well organised and we believe that we have a solid roadmap for 2021 that will see the addition of new modules and improvements to the core-DCS program. Please do take a look at our plan below but kindly understand that the dates are our best estimates as of writing this letter and may move around a bit as time goes by. 

.....

Vulkan API and Multi-threading

With the integration of these libraries, DCS will benefit from improved performance throughout, including in virtual reality. This has been a substantial task to develop and integrate into our codebase, but we are nearing the end of this journey, and expect it to be available in the 3rd quarter of this year


ED never promise a fixed date. Only need see the problems with the Mosquito FB, other modules and features. That has subject to change, never promise and no write on stone, from some years ago.


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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Silver_Dragon, please.

 

No one ever upset here about if the date "may move around a bit", that's life.

What is the problem is the lack of new communication, just read the conversation before.

That's it.

 

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Can somebody explain why you're all so enthusiastic in your anticipation of Vulkan?
Why do you all expect this to be done sort of Holly grail?
I might be totally out of the ball park here, but from what I've read, the leap from OpenGL in that civ sim will be very different compared to DX11. IIRC, even one of the mods here has stated "it might not be the silver bullet you all are expecting" or something like that.
Multithreading on the other hand, that I expect benefits from. I wonder if we even get better benefits from running SP missions on dedicated servers.
So, will Vulkan benefit from multithreading? Even only going from DX11?

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On 10/1/2021 at 8:24 AM, St4rgun said:

It's not only about the fps increase.

It's about the possibility to refactor the whole codebase, possible to change back to forward rendering which could solve the AA bugs of DCS in VR.

 

Eliminating the jaggies and shimmering, the lighting errors, the rendering bugs of transparent textures AND fps increase.

 

The Vulkan migration means completely rethink and modernize a decade old engine which is not built from the ground up with VR in mind.

It WAS a very important decision for ED in the past to go the Vulkan way while also working on the multithreading optimization in parallel.

 

I'm pretty sure, that when it will be ready this will change the VR experience in DCS a LOT.

 

Surely, it's az enormous task, so it's impossible to estimate the correct ETA at the beginning.

But they are working on this migration process for more than TWO YEARS.

 

 

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4 hours ago, St4rgun said:

Silver_Dragon, please.

 

No one ever upset here about if the date "may move around a bit", that's life.

What is the problem is the lack of new communication, just read the conversation before.

That's it.

 

 

The lack of comunication about Vulkan has someone normal, remember the situation with the DCS core, engine,  Dynamic Campaign, Weather, other funtionalities, modules, maps, etc. In the past ED was more "open" to give info and updates, but someone start to attack to ED and develop teams talking about "where are may promise X, that has abandomware / Vaporware, deadlines" and more, turning on a Lockdown.

 

Only can Wait about them, when it done, and have someone to share.


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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If this was an answer to me, I did already read it, but I guess I didn't pay enough attention. Might be because I don't think what you're suggesting could possible be done in two years. Not sure if it could be done at all without starting completely from scratch. Alas, that would come at a hefty cost as we've heard in interviews.
Even so, thank you. I will cross my fingers.

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I'm really sorry that in the past this negative communication happened, but I wasn't involved in that.

 

On my behalf I highly respect the ED developers being an engineer myself, but at the same time being curious about the progress, that's all.

For me (as other people) the linked psychology works: Check this out: https://www.psychologyofgames.com/2019/10/loading-when-were-willing-to-wait/

 

We'll be more than happy for any tiny bit of new information on this topic, not only the 100% readiness if meaningful for us.

I don't want to urge the developers (plus they qon't care If I do 😃), just take their time.

 

But please try to figure out SOME way to involve the community more into this project to engage them even more.

 

Thank you all for all your efforts and hard work on this marvellous piece of software!


Edited by St4rgun
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You were a little bit faster than me, I just found also this info. 😃

Thanks for every development effort.

 

Community managers: please in the future let us know if there is such information. Thank you.

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You were a little bit faster than me, I just found also this info. 
Thanks for every development effort.
 
Community managers: please in the future let us know if there is such information. Thank you.

Just a pitty there was no such information in recent newsletter
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ED doesn't owe us anything. We're lucky to get the updates we do get these days. I'm sure there are so many details with this technology and it's complexity is probably too much to  breakdown and sum up to where most in this community can mentally digest it. It will come in time and I hope we can appreciate what is involved to bring it to us.

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59 minutes ago, Raven68 said:

ED doesn't owe us anything. We're lucky to get the updates we do get these days. I'm sure there are so many details with this technology and it's complexity is probably too much to  breakdown and sum up to where most in this community can mentally digest it. It will come in time and I hope we can appreciate what is involved to bring it to us.

 

It's not only about Vulkan.

I have a strange feeling (maybe I'm wrong) that the introduced new features like the new clouds' heavy aliasing is still with us, and stay with us along with many shimmering and aliasing of transparent textures because the developers run into some serious limitations with the current engine (i.e. deferred shading constraints).

 

During switching to Vulkan maybe they will have the possibility to solve these issues all originated from the anti-aliasing problems by switching back to forward rendering and applying MSAA, but I don't have any info on that.

If that is the case then they won't allocate development resources to iron these issues out one by one somehow when the new engine can eliminate them in a whole.

 

So the Vulkan development will theoretically could help highy raising the visual quality in VR, that's why we are waiting for it so much. At least we hope for that.

But we'll wait as long as we have to, just being sad to know that it won't happen this year.

Maybe next year will be luckier for us.

 

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1 hour ago, Raven68 said:

ED doesn't owe us anything.

Since we are paying customers, yes they do. As soon as money exchanges hands, the relationship changes.

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5 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Since we are paying customers, yes they do. As soon as money exchanges hands, the relationship changes.


You pay for the module you purchase, the core is maintained independently from the modules.

So via A->B, the relationship only involves the future of the module you purchase, not the core it runs on.

That being said, ED is pretty transparent in most area's and pushes out updates when there is tangible/substantial progress to report/show.


Edited by SkateZilla
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3 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

You pay for the module you purchase, the core is maintained independently from the modules.

So via A->B, the relationship only involves the future of the module you purchase, not the core it runs on.

That being said, ED is pretty transparent in most area's and pushes out updates when there is tangible/substantial progress to report/show.

 

 

Sorry, but that's a very skewed view, as the modules we pay for are depending on the core!


Edited by QuiGon
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  • ED Team

Please dont derail the thread, if you are not sure about our product and your relationship as customers please have a read of our EULA. 

 

Vulkan and multicore are huge tasks, we shared our plans at the beginning of the year with you all but they were not set in stone, if we need more time for a project we will take it. Vulkan and multicore can not be rushed it is that simple. As we have already stated as soon as we have something to share we will share it. 

 

Thank you for your patience again. 

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2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please dont derail the thread, if you are not sure about our product and your relationship as customers please have a read of our EULA. 

 

Vulkan and multicore are huge tasks, we shared our plans at the beginning of the year with you all but they were not set in stone, if we need more time for a project we will take it. Vulkan and multicore can not be rushed it is that simple. As we have already stated as soon as we have something to share we will share it. 

 

Thank you for your patience again. 

1. I hope no one tries to rush the devs. Quality is more important.

2. Consider the pay option for the Vulkan migration, if that helps to allocate resources.

3. For anyone who is involved in communication with the community this article is really interesting to read, and adapt: https://www.psychologyofgames.com/2019/10/loading-when-were-willing-to-wait/

4. Unforutantely with total lack of technical "sneak peek" info on the Vulkan migration the topic can't be "railed" more on technical questions. I hope this will change in the future.

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1 minute ago, St4rgun said:

1. I hope no one tries to rush the devs. Quality is more important.

2. Consider the pay option for the Vulkan migration, if that helps to allocate resources.

3. For anyone who is involved in communication with the community this article is really interesting to read, and adapt: https://www.psychologyofgames.com/2019/10/loading-when-were-willing-to-wait/

4. Unforutantely with total lack of technical "sneak peek" info on the Vulkan migration the topic can't be "railed" more on technical questions. I hope this will change in the future.

 

We won't be rushing, and have no plans for a pay option, thanks for the link will read as soon as I have time. 

 

thanks

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While we are waiting I went through the history of this topic.

It was very interesting to see the timeline.

 

For a quick summary here is a short list:

  1. 28. November 2017. - Wags, A letter from Eagle Dynamics: "We are also developing our engine to take advantage of the Vulcan API to further improve game performance."
  2. 29. December 2017. - Czich, DCS World Newsletter: "We and our partners plan even bigger and better things for 2018 to include: ... working on improvements to clouds, explosions with improved proximity damage, virtual reality, spotting system, network play, Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR), air-to-air missiles, and performance optimization with the inclusion of the Vulkan API"
  3. 9. August 2018. - Wags, comment: "Base programming and testing should be finished next month. We'll then work on transferring our shaders to the new API. This is a very new technology for us, and it is quite possible that we will run into unforeseen issues during that phase. DCS World uses many complicated shaders that may not necessarily play nice with the Vulkan API."
  4. 11. January 2019. - Czich, DCS World Newsletter: "In parallel to all the above, the team continues to work on the foundation items of DCS World like air and ground artificial intelligence, performance optimization, more detailed damage models for all unit types, Vulkan implementation, improved VR optimization and improved Touch Controller support, aircraft wake turbulence."
  5. 28. October 2019. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Vulkan API is a high priority for the team, we do not have any time line yet however. When we get closer to implementing we will share more information."
  6. 17. January 2020. - BIGNEWY, comment: "No 2.5.6 will not have vulkan, we will announce vulkan when it is ready dont worry."
  7. 21. July 2020. - NineLine, comment: "Vulkan is part of a larger Graphics Engine rebuild, yes it will take time."
  8. 18. October 2020. - NineLine, comment: "We should also understand that Vulkan is part of a larger update to the Graphics engine, Vulkan alone will not be a magic cure all, but part of the mix to make things better, thanks!"
  9. 8. January 2021. - DCS World Newsletter: "...kindly understand that the dates are our best estimates as of writing this letter and may move around a bit as time goes by... Vulkan API and Multi-threading - With the integration of these libraries, DCS will benefit from improved performance throughout, including in virtual reality. This has been a substantial task to develop and integrate into our codebase, but we are nearing the end of this journey, and expect it to be available in the 3rd quarter of this year."
  10. 9. March 2021. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Planned for around 3rd quarter, if we need more time we will take it, but work is progressing well."
  11. 1. October 2021. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Hello all, work is progressing with vulkan but we are not ready to share any news yet. Thank you for your patience."
  12. 5. October 2021. - Czich, comment on the russian thread: "Vulkan is under development. Not this year."
  13. 7. October 2021. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Vulkan and multicore are huge tasks, we shared our plans at the beginning of the year with you all but they were not set in stone, if we need more time for a project we will take it. Vulkan and multicore can not be rushed it is that simple. As we have already stated as soon as we have something to share we will share it."

Seeing 4 years of hard work now I'm even more curious what approximate percentage the progress is now?

Is it somewhere 95-98% (as I hope), or less? It's rather mysterious...

 

What happened in the last years? Something major point of focus has to be changed to have such a huge reschedule compared to the original plans.

Now I understand why no one try to write any official approximate deployment date.

 

Let's chime in again a monthly basis. Good luck.

 

Edit: 1. date correction, 2. inserted 5. October 2021. comment


Edited by St4rgun
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8 hours ago, St4rgun said:

While we are waiting I went through the history of this topic.

It was very interesting to see the timeline.

 

For a quick summary here is a short list:

  1. 28. November 2017. - Wags, A letter from Eagle Dynamics: "We are also developing our engine to take advantage of the Vulcan API to further improve game performance."
  2. 29. December 2017. - Czich, DCS World Newsletter: "We and our partners plan even bigger and better things for 2018 to include: ... working on improvements to clouds, explosions with improved proximity damage, virtual reality, spotting system, network play, Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR), air-to-air missiles, and performance optimization with the inclusion of the Vulkan API"
  3. 9. August 2018. - Wags, comment: "Base programming and testing should be finished next month. We'll then work on transferring our shaders to the new API. This is a very new technology for us, and it is quite possible that we will run into unforeseen issues during that phase. DCS World uses many complicated shaders that may not necessarily play nice with the Vulkan API."
  4. 11. January 2019. - Czich, DCS World Newsletter: "In parallel to all the above, the team continues to work on the foundation items of DCS World like air and ground artificial intelligence, performance optimization, more detailed damage models for all unit types, Vulkan implementation, improved VR optimization and improved Touch Controller support, aircraft wake turbulence."
  5. 28. October 2019. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Vulkan API is a high priority for the team, we do not have any time line yet however. When we get closer to implementing we will share more information."
  6. 17. January 2020. - BIGNEWY, comment: "No 2.5.6 will not have vulkan, we will announce vulkan when it is ready dont worry."
  7. 21. July 2020. - NineLine, comment: "Vulkan is part of a larger Graphics Engine rebuild, yes it will take time."
  8. 18. October 2020. - NineLine, comment: "We should also understand that Vulkan is part of a larger update to the Graphics engine, Vulkan alone will not be a magic cure all, but part of the mix to make things better, thanks!"
  9. 8. January 2019. - DCS World Newsletter: "...kindly understand that the dates are our best estimates as of writing this letter and may move around a bit as time goes by... Vulkan API and Multi-threading - With the integration of these libraries, DCS will benefit from improved performance throughout, including in virtual reality. This has been a substantial task to develop and integrate into our codebase, but we are nearing the end of this journey, and expect it to be available in the 3rd quarter of this year."
  10. 9. March 2021. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Planned for around 3rd quarter, if we need more time we will take it, but work is progressing well."
  11. 1. October 2021. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Hello all, work is progressing with vulkan but we are not ready to share any news yet. Thank you for your patience."
  12. 7. October 2021. - BIGNEWY, comment: "Vulkan and multicore are huge tasks, we shared our plans at the beginning of the year with you all but they were not set in stone, if we need more time for a project we will take it. Vulkan and multicore can not be rushed it is that simple. As we have already stated as soon as we have something to share we will share it."

Seeing 4 years of hard work now I'm even more curious what approximate percentage the progress is now?

Is it somewhere 95-98% (as I hope), or less? It's rather mysterious...

 

What happened in the last years? Something major point of focus has to be changed to have such a huge reschedule compared to the original plans.

Now I understand why no one try to write any official approximate deployment date.

 

Let's chime in again a monthly basis. Good luck.



5 Years for a Major Graphics Engine and Supporting Content Re-Write is on par with other independent developers that use their own engine as well.

DX11/EDGE took about 4-5 years to develop as well, making public debut October 2015.

And that was without CV restraints.


Edited by SkateZilla
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Hi - I recently interviewed Matt for PC Pilot magazine and we talk about Vulkan, multi core development and other stuff extensively. Details of when the article is out will be released very soon. Oh, there’s another fantastic feature - under development - discussed in the article.


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11 hours ago, St4rgun said:
  1. 8. January 2019. - DCS World Newsletter: "...kindly understand that the dates are our best estimates as of writing this letter and may move around a bit as time goes by... Vulkan API and Multi-threading - With the integration of these libraries, DCS will benefit from improved performance throughout, including in virtual reality. This has been a substantial task to develop and integrate into our codebase, but we are nearing the end of this journey, and expect it to be available in the 3rd quarter of this year."

 

Thanks for the overview, but shouldn't this be "8. January 2021"?

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1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Thanks for the overview, but shouldn't this be "8. January 2021"?

Sure, thanks. Corrected.

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7 hours ago, C3PO said:

Hi - I recently interviewed Matt for PC Pilot magazine and we talk about Vulkan, multi core development and other stuff extensively. Details of when the article is out will be released very soon. Oh, there’s another fantastic feature - under development - discussed in the article.

 

Make sure to leave here the link when is out please. Looking forward to it.

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Sure - I’ll post a summary of the main themes, but can’t post the whole thing for obvious reasons - paid for publication!


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