What is the state of the FM as of today?

Is it my imagination or has today's patch made her behave more nicely around the boat? I feel as though the weird undeleted stores/fuel weight/drag issue is likely gone based on a couple of sorties and some quick case 1s.

It's not your imagination, I'm thinking. The first thing I did after updating was hop in the Tomkitty for a lap around the Stennis.

Much smoother, it feels like, with less power needed, and much less squirelly with stick inputs. Like it better; still not sure it's as good as when I first bought it.

EDIT: Didn't try it after having a heavy stores load at the start. I guess you could gen up a quick mission, load her down, then jettison it all behind the boat and see what happens in the pattern.

Is it my imagination or has today's patch made her behave more nicely around the boat? I feel as though the weird undeleted stores/fuel weight/drag issue is likely gone based on a couple of sorties and some quick case 1s.

Yes it did, sorry that our changelog came a bit late today, the FM changes are mentioned there. However the drag issue is still present. You will notice that if you tray a mil power climb with external stores, she should push better than what she does in MIL.

Thanks Mike. Things are definitely moving in the right direction.

One of my missions was an air start with 2000lb of fuel, a pair of GBU-10s and a pair of GBU-12s along with a sparrow, a pair of sidewinders, the LANTIRN and two empty external tanks. I hit the tanker and filled to 20,000 and then jettisoned the bombs, lit the burners and headed for the boat.

I accelerated until I was hitting my top speed and then punched off the tanks. Speed increased as you would normally expect. I entered the break with the pod, the sparrow and the sidewinders and roughly 5,000lb of fuel. Getting on-speed was a breeze, fuel flow was a little under 5kph and there was very little sinking through the turn into the groove.

Very happy even if it's not perfect yet. Well done to the team.

Yes, we're in the process of trying to finalize some handling qualities. The team and our SME have been very busy the past couple months but we're starting to focus on the FM again and trying to figure out some discrepancies that have popped up as DCS get updates.

Speaking of new FM tweaks this update (they are awesome), when operating airbrake stab trim did not move at all for me. Im pretty sure it was so (stab trim movement) before the update.

Can anyone check on that? Might be something on my end, but I thought Ill say just in case.

Yes, we're in the process of trying to finalize some handling qualities. The team and our SME have been very busy the past couple months but we're starting to focus on the FM again and trying to figure out some discrepancies that have popped up as DCS get updates.

It's crazy you guys have to figure out ED's changes on your own rather than them sending you a memo ahead of time of what specifically they're doing.

It's crazy you guys have to figure out ED's changes on your own rather than them sending you a memo ahead of time of what specifically they're doing.

+1. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Speaking of new FM tweaks this update (they are awesome), when operating airbrake stab trim did not move at all for me. Im pretty sure it was so (stab trim movement) before the update.

Can anyone check on that? Might be something on my end, but I thought Ill say just in case.

Same issue here, really throws off trim requirements in the pattern compared to previous versions. Although I must admit coming out of the break turn is easier now, since you don't need that much nose up trim

Speaking of new FM tweaks this update (they are awesome), when operating airbrake stab trim did not move at all for me. Im pretty sure it was so (stab trim movement) before the update.

Can anyone check on that? Might be something on my end, but I thought Ill say just in case.

I removed the pitch moment from the speedbrake and the automatic trim compensation until we can fix it. The speedbrake deployment is supposed to be pitch neutral, which it was not. Not sure when I'll bring back the pitch moment from the speedbrake and the trim compensation, but I felt it was more important to get rid of the pitch moment for now as it was our SME's biggest complaint. Good eye. Doing this also solved an issue of needing to trim far too much nose up during speedbrake deployment and subsequently far too much forward stick/trim needed on a go-around when the speedbrake retracts.

@fat creason

Allow me to really commend you on this latest FM update, really has improved the maneuvering performance characteristics of the aircraft a lot in terms of authenticity, esp. the load factor performance seems a lot more in line with RL established performance now. The aircraft also isn't losing speed too rapidly at high AoA anymore. Feels much better. Thank you.

I removed the pitch moment from the speedbrake and the automatic trim compensation until we can fix it. The speedbrake deployment is supposed to be pitch neutral, which it was not. Not sure when I'll bring back the pitch moment from the speedbrake and the trim compensation, but I felt it was more important to get rid of the pitch moment for now as it was our SME's biggest complaint. Good eye. Doing this also solved an issue of needing to trim far too much nose up during speedbrake deployment and subsequently far too much forward stick/trim needed on a go-around when the speedbrake retracts.

You guys are amazing. The gold standard by some distance.

.... Good eye. ...

Nope, Its in the startup checklist to verify its correct operation. Thx for the explanation, make sense to remove it for now.

Keep up the amazing work you are doing.

I removed the pitch moment from the speedbrake and the automatic trim compensation until we can fix it. The speedbrake deployment is supposed to be pitch neutral, which it was not. Not sure when I'll bring back the pitch moment from the speedbrake and the trim compensation, but I felt it was more important to get rid of the pitch moment for now as it was our SME's biggest complaint. Good eye. Doing this also solved an issue of needing to trim far too much nose up during speedbrake deployment and subsequently far too much forward stick/trim needed on a go-around when the speedbrake retracts.

Glad to see your focus is high getting the FM ironed out despite DCS creating issues.

Question regarding airbrake/ trim: wasn't it easier to tune the amount of trim bias, rather than making the speedbrake "aerodynamically" pitch neutral? it's probably not very noticeable, but I guess a higher deflection of the stabs (due to a trim change) would contribute to the total amount of drag of the aircraft when the speedbrake is deployed.

P.S. I know this is a temporary solution, just curious to understand the dev process a bit :thumbup:

The added drag from stab trim position change is negligible compared to the speedbrake drag. When some larger issues have been addressed I’ll come back and tune the moments so that the speedbrake and trim compensation actually cancel each other out.

Since latest OB update there are big changes it seems!

It feels much more 'on rails' now and less 'floaty' and 'lofty', maybe a bit too much or is it because I was used to the previous fm?

Also I definitely felt the gear and landing flaps moment change the pitch of the airframe, a bit exagerated but maybe others can weigh in?

I need some more time to get a better hang of it, I can maintain aoa and altitude much easier in turns now especially the last leg, but for some reason my geometry is completely wrong now. oh wel...

...but for some reason my geometry is completely wrong now. oh wel...

I think we'll have to get used to the finer points being changed often, at least until the most of the issues get sorted out. Even then, changes in the base platform (in this case DCS) will often catch us unawares until HB has time to respond. :thumbup:

whoa... the fm changes during the latest patch :huh:

The pitch moments for the landing flaps seems a bit crazy to me. My pattern is completely messed up again.

I give up. Will concentrate on acm until the fm calms down.

Don't give up. Yes, the fm changes often atm, but the changes only strike as huge on the initial touch. If you keep working through them, she quickly feels familiar again, they are not as huge as they appear. You will also be able to "hear" the feedback from the SMEs much more if you go along, I know sometimes it surprises a bit, but it is not random and aims at various aspects that are still a bit WIP in the very small regimes.

Because of this we are not going into too much detail, as Fat Creason will address the entire evolution of the FM once we are close to or at completion. Thank you for hanging in there, atm our main goal is to get the thumbs up from the SMEs also in minor details.

Don't give up. Yes, the fm changes often atm, but the changes only strike as huge on the initial touch. If you keep working through them, she quickly feels familiar again, they are not as huge as they appear. You will also be able to "hear" the feedback from the SMEs much more if you go along, I know sometimes it surprises a bit, but it is not random and aims at various aspects that are still a bit WIP in the very small regimes.

 

Because of this we are not going into too much detail, as Fat Creason will address the entire evolution of the FM once we are close to or at completion. Thank you for hanging in there, atm our main goal is to get the thumbs up from the SMEs also in minor details.

Gracias! Love HB's focus. It'll get dialed in. :megalol:

Just my insatiable curiosity asking, but how far along are you guys on the FM? 75% completion? 80-90%?

Plenty of other modules in DCS to fly till HB decide on a final handling FM. So has the FM been constantly changing for the past however many years since the start of development? It always strikes me as odd that an aircraft gets released in DCS...and all of a sudden the FM needs a major overhaul - as if it didn't exist before release?

Surely not a 'she'll be right...get her out the door no one flying DCS flies a real F-14, they won't notice"...."Damn, they noticed...." :music_whistling:

I don’t think it’s that there’s something “wrong” with the flight model. I’m thinkimg things get tweaked for three reasons:

1. Manuals don’t 100% agree with reality 100% of the time.

2. Every airframe is slightly different. 101 might handle well, 102 might have a handling quirk in a certain regime, 103 might have a different handling quirk in another particular regime, etc.

3. Human factors. One pilot may interpret something different than another, especially since it’s all muscle memory and they may not have really noticed while flying. Add a few decades out of the cockpit amd some things could get misremembered or mixed up.

Plenty of other modules in DCS to fly till HB decide on a final handling FM. So has the FM been constantly changing for the past however many years since the start of development? It always strikes me as odd that an aircraft gets released in DCS...and all of a sudden the FM needs a major overhaul - as if it didn't exist before release?

And then ED performs back end alterations to stores drag values, of which third parties have no control over, and are always working at least one release build behind. As an added bonus, they alter handling values as different between carrier spawn versus air/land start, causing two separate lines of divergence.

Every time ED makes a global physics alteration, third parties are left playing catch up. The Tomcat has more routes of failure because of its weapons loadout; it is the only aircraft with Phoenix and the only third party aircraft with Sparrow or Sidewinder, and it's the only third party carrier-based platform. ED alters global values, they internally update their own modules, resulting in no apparent adjustment to their aircraft.

HB doesn't have that luxury. Instead, they're left playing catch up, adjusting from what was, while the global situation keeps changing.

Surely not a 'she'll be right...get her out the door no one flying DCS flies a real F-14, they won't notice"...."Damn, they noticed...." :music_whistling:

That argument is predicated on their former aircrew SMEs being full of it with developmental builds- which are built off of and corrected via current DCS release. Do you think they're BSing, or do you not acknowledge the scope of what is going on?

Its unfortunate, but that's the way it is. Perhaps someday ED will get enough of a grasp around the laws of physics that they can let the engine go more than a release build without gross back end changes; or, more useful, let developers control weapon drag until the point of release, permitting a far more sensible process of matching drag indices to materials, and removing the concept of variables third parties don't control from the FM development equation.

Stop treating the aircraft like a science experiment. As if every exact input must equal an exact output. Stop executing every action because its a checklist item and instead understand why you are doing it. Checklists are there to make sure you don't miss anything. It is not instructions on how to operate the aircraft. Then relax and just fly the plane. Be adaptable and if the A/C behaves differently than expected, assess, analyze, adjust. Be an Aviator, not just a pilot.