MiG-29's BFM characteristics / doubts - ED Forums
 


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Old 12-13-2019, 05:19 PM   #1
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Default MiG-29's BFM characteristics / doubts

Hello everyone,

First, I'm not claiming the FM is wrong or whatever, neither I'm I asking to discuss against FM charts or diagrams.
I'm also from LOMAC times, when the MiG's poor SFM was in use.
These are just my personal impressions, as I'm trying to understand certain stuff about the Fulcrum's handling characteristics.

I would appreciate your opinions, to better understand this aircraft in BFM - which is; how it does "turn", its BFM behavior.
As to be honest, in some situations when dogfighting against other types in DCS, I really feel the MiG leaves something to be desired - taking into account its worldwide reputation as a lethal dogfighter.

For starters, I got to know the MiG-29 from long ago from 1995 (as the main enemy's jet fighter in TOPGUN: Fire at Will!... so it was even before the Internet arrive at Portugal).
It quickly became legendary thanks to its maneuverability, and a few years after with the Internet appearance, one got to know even more of its capabilities and virtues regarding aerial warfare, and its status grew even higher.

So the thing is: throughout innumerous media sources the Fulcrum boasted the fame of being a super maneuverable, almost "diabolic" uber-machine; but in DCS when fighting other types... meh... I feel something's just missing.

Getting to the point:
Few days ago when the JF-17 came out, I've flown 5 different airframes DACT against it (JF-17 AI), and to my surprise, I felt that the MiG-29 was the one in which I got more difficulty to get on the AI's JF-17 six o'clock.

(Roughly at sea level; 2 A-A missiles and 60 % internal fuel for both aircraft - I felt it had the worst performance of the 5 aircraft.
When lowering the internal fuel to 3500 lbs to both AC things got much easier, but even though the MiG didn't impress much.)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=257291

To be honest, although with different types of FCS I was always expected the Fulcrum to be something roughly similar to the F/A-18C in terms of low speed handling... but in reality it ain't so.

1 - maybe the because the Hornet allows high AoA just by continuously pulling on the stick, while on the MiG if one forgets to press the paddle switch, the nose will briefly stop tracking as it hits 26 AoA;
...but even whit paddle switch pressed it does feel somewhat stuck; as it doesn't move its nose with the same ease / authority as the Hornet;

2 - also was expecting to feel an higher sustained turn rate, but even the Su-27 seems to have an higher STR - is this true ?

3 - also felt that it was easier to get on the JF-17's six, flying in the F-15 than in the MiG - how come ?
Does the F-15 have a better STR, better at maintaining energy while turning ?

4 - when chasing the JF-17, the MiG does seem to lose energy almost as quickly as the Mirage, when the Hornet does keep it easier - is it because of the Fulcrum's relaxed stability design ?

5 - can't say for sure, but generally it feels somewhat a little hindered when turning, comparing to other supposedly less maneuverable fighters, as the F-14 and the F-15, probably I was expecting its turn radius to be smaller ?

So MiG-29 fans or otherwise, feel free to tell me what I'm not getting right about the mighty Fulcrum.
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Old 12-13-2019, 06:12 PM   #2
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They work for the WADA... just saying. At this point I don’t give a Sh*t this simulator until they show a transparent behavior. Sorry but I can’t spend my time in something is clearly manipulated. At the same time they let the forum users trolling the Russian aircraft threads and posts. So in 3,2,1 now you will have trolling this thread as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ntl/index.html
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Old 12-13-2019, 06:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepin1234 View Post
They work for the WADA... just saying. At this point I don’t give a Sh*t this simulator until they show a transparent behavior. Sorry but I can’t spend my time in something is clearly manipulated. At the same time they let the forum users trolling the Russian aircraft threads and posts. So in 3,2,1 now you will have trolling this thread as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ntl/index.html
Well I understand that there are many biased members, for either blue or red, for an airframe or another, but that is to be expected - within the healthy opinions exchange.
(I for myself also have my favorite airframes, for instance always found the Fulcrum much more interesting than the Eagle.)

Even though I would like to know your technical opinions, on the stuff I posted about the Fulcrum if possible.
Thank you.
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:34 PM   #4
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Hello Top Jockey,

I think that flying against AI isn't the best way to ascertain what any of these airframes are really like. Your best bet is to find someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to BFM then running through what you'd like to see in regards to a specific regime.

But a couple of quick observations I've made from doing exactly that against a number of my friends who are solid in BFM is that right now the JF-17 is the BFM king of the hill (we don't pull the paddle in the hornet unless we are about to CFIT, so bear that in mind).

I can't speak to the current performance of the fulcrum in DCS but if you'd like to fly it against me I'd be happy to help you in that regard.

Best,

LB.
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:39 PM   #5
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Well, right off the bat, dogfighting AI is not an accurate comparison of aircraft. The AI literally do not fly by the same rules of physics as we do, an AI is harder to fight, performance wise than a player as a result.

''Media sources''? It's not a huge leap of logic to know ''media sources'' is an unreliable basis to build opinions from. That said, it does have, and IS an excellent 1980s/ early 1990s warplane, that said there is NO SUCH THING as a ''best'' fighter, as everything about aerodynamics and military aviation is a balance of various tradeoffs. Depending on how they're flown and what the circumstances are depends on which aircraft has an edge in any given situation. Again, AI play by different physics, so some of this doesn't even apply in this case. And even so.... the MiG we have is about 30 years old avionics-wise and even older aerodynamics-wise, flying against a plane that only recently entered production and is basically targeted at the same ''market segment''. I would expect an aging and retired MiG variant to struggle with its modern day equivalent.

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Old 12-13-2019, 07:41 PM   #6
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I am really tired to keep this discussion, there are tons of thread talking about. They just don’t want the Russian Aircraft win in this simulator. We have years asking for this unfair treatment and bias against aircraft that in reality are really capable. MiG-29 is the most ridiculous affected in this bias action by developers. I can’t get a decent performance landing this aircraft instead the rest they are pretty handy, and more... They are showing all the opposite that in real life be. Bugs everywhere and they even don’t talk about. Systems missed that are really needed in combat. Is obvious... what else we can say. I don’t want stay playing a product they manipulate all the way. In this forum is a rule that is prohibited talk about political issues. Look who make the justice here... what else... they suck. Good bye. I didn’t post in months here. Is just a waste of time. After The fighter Collection got the control of ED all was settled for Russian aircrafts in this simulator
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Old 12-13-2019, 08:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Blow View Post
Hello Top Jockey,

I think that flying against AI isn't the best way to ascertain what any of these airframes are really like. Your best bet is to find someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to BFM then running through what you'd like to see in regards to a specific regime.

But a couple of quick observations I've made from doing exactly that against a number of my friends who are solid in BFM is that right now the JF-17 is the BFM king of the hill (we don't pull the paddle in the hornet unless we are about to CFIT, so bear that in mind).

I can't speak to the current performance of the fulcrum in DCS but if you'd like to fly it against me I'd be happy to help you in that regard.

Best,

LB.
Yeah I agree with this. The AI is super dodgy and doesn't really behave like another player in an actual plane. Try it out in MP with someone you know is the best advice.
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Old 12-13-2019, 09:55 PM   #8
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@Low Blow,
Thank you for the offer, one of these days maybe I'll accept it - in order to learn more about DACT with several airframes, amongst them the MiG-29.

Believe it or not I never played any sim whatsoever multiplayer (neither aircraft, car racing, first person shooter), but if the online setup is easy I'm looking forward to give it a try soon.

@zhukov,
I fully understand you and even so I'm curious to see how the 80's Fulcrum we have fares against other types in DACT vs human player.

@pepin,
Yeah I've read that already here and there and I see your point.
However I do not consider myself a facious blind fan of a given airframe.

As I appreciate several airframes regardless of their origin, I really like the MiG-29 so I'll always be interested in its true dogfight performance - although I tought it would be close to the IRL with the PFM release, hence my doubts when I feel it shows difficulties in certain BFM aspect.

Although nobody goes into detail of its perceived maneuverability handicaps in DCS, you confirmed so.
I understand your disappointment.

@Harlikwin,
Sure, I'm thinking about trying the offer from @Low Blow soon.

Anyone, who wants to share their opinion on the specific technical points (1 to 5) I mentioned regarding the BFM characteristics of the MiG-29, feel free to do so.
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Old 12-13-2019, 10:37 PM   #9
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Didn’t you post earlier about this, mentioning the poor roll authority at AOA? That is certainly a Fulcrum quirk that makes it harder to fly, the roll mostly depends on ailerons where ass other modern jets like Hornet and Flanker use large amounts of differential horizontal tail deflection for roll. I think the Fulcrum only does something like move the stabs 5 degrees for roll.

What’s speed are you trying these STR at? The Fulcrum and Flanker both have structural issues that prevent max G above Mach .85. Goes down to 6.5 then back up to 7.5 I believe once your past transonic.

Also it’s tradition CAS does make it sluggish to react, any FBW jet has a huge advantage in how fast they react, you can see they will usually over deflect a surface then when desired AOA/ turn rate achieve deflection goes back down to maintain it.

We’re you flying the F-18 or against it?
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Old 12-13-2019, 10:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepin1234 View Post
I am really tired to keep this discussion, there are tons of thread talking about. They just don’t want the Russian Aircraft win in this simulator. We have years asking for this unfair treatment and bias against aircraft that in reality are really capable. MiG-29 is the most ridiculous affected in this bias action by developers. I can’t get a decent performance landing this aircraft instead the rest they are pretty handy, and more... They are showing all the opposite that in real life be. Bugs everywhere and they even don’t talk about. Systems missed that are really needed in combat. Is obvious... what else we can say. I don’t want stay playing a product they manipulate all the way. In this forum is a rule that is prohibited talk about political issues. Look who make the justice here... what else... they suck. Good bye. I didn’t post in months here. Is just a waste of time. After The fighter Collection got the control of ED all was settled for Russian aircrafts in this simulator
''Russia conspiracy''
''Fake news''
''Russia Witch Hunt''
Yeah, yeah, we know @@
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