** Anytime, Baby! - NEW TRAILER & TRACK PREMIERE **

I would take the Tomcat over the Viper at 200 KIAS any day as well....but all the throttle bashing required at that low speed to stay on the right side of the drag curve would make me super nervous! There is no denying the A's engines were just a nightmare lol.

I would take the Tomcat over the Viper at 200 KIAS any day as well....but all the throttle bashing required at that low speed to stay on the right side of the drag curve would make me super nervous! There is no denying the A's engines were just a nightmare lol.

Absolutely :thumbup: I will stay away from those TF-30 and fly the F-14B anyway

You are too reliant on "paper statistics". How well trained and gifted a pilot is, is as important as how good their aircraft is.

 

Somebody with 50 hours in an F-16, is probably going to get their teeth kicked in by someone with 1000 hours in an F-14.

I think a lot of these comparisons are supposing that 'all things being equal'..so same load out type/pilot exp etc etc.

Your statement above is pretty obvious, and really makes the comparison of anything to anything pointless ...

Me on Ducati GP18 MotoGP Bike...Valentino Rossi on Kalex Moto2 bike. I get my teeth kicked in lol. Is the Kalex 600 better than the GP18...never in a million years...all things being equal

You are too reliant on "paper statistics". How well trained and gifted a pilot is, is as important as how good their aircraft is.

 

Somebody with 50 hours in an F-16, is probably going to get their teeth kicked in by someone with 1000 hours in an F-14.

Which is a given in 99% of cases, which is why pilot skill is set aside in such discussions and the 'paper stats' of the aircraft are the relevant aspect. Pilot skill is an unknown and unforeseeable variable. ''Oh, I'll totally blow this dude away... if he's a noob and/or idiot'' Yeah. No shit.

I also agree an F-16 at stall speed would probably be less stable than an F-14 due to the delta wings. Regardless, it's a much lighter and more maneuverable aircraft to start with, so him ending up in that situation would be completely unnecessary.

As for whoever said 'there is no better this or that plane in WVR'...... that is blatant nonsensical BS. Yes. There are indeed better and worse aircraft in specific regimes, but there are also aircraft that are better ACROSS THE BOARD. That is an outright fact.

I guess some people need to read about Hoser Satrapa's 2v1 fight against F-15's during Red Flag. Two fights actually, the second one the USAF Eagle drivers knew there was only one Tomcat and still got waxed. Per the RIO's story Hoser had the plane in full landing configuration and was turning all over the Eagles, flaps, gear, spoilers. I don't remember what year this was, but it wouldn't shock me if it were in an A model. We all know the limitations of the TF-30's, but the plane could still fly quite well as it had big ass'd wings, slats, huge control surfaces, and in the hands of someone as experiences as Hoser, or Snort, or any of those guys who flew it more or less from day one then a Viper or Eagle driver would more than have his or her hands full.

For critical distance - I also read once on here a post on a thread that someone tossed up, it was a note written by an Eagle driver. He said something to the affect that with the A models they just went vertical and came down and killed the hell out of the Navy. With the B's and A+'s it became more difficult, and the D was such an advanced plane that the Tomcat pilots had to worry less about flying the airplane and could focus on coming up with more ways to kill them the Eagles.

Going back to the first part, every plane has its issues. Every single one. Sometimes it's just the pilot that makes the difference. Whether it's 50 Hellcats vs a single Zero flown by Saki, late model 109's in the hands of an Experten tearing Mustangs up, a peasant air force sticking it to "the man" over North Vietnam, or a lucky punch in the nose on a fairly new Hornet in Gulf War I, sometimes the man makes the difference, not the machine.

Will this be capable of performing Capt. Dale "Snort" Snodgrass' signature take off as seen here at 1:41?

VFA-143 Pukin Dogs in the F-14b Tomcat

and those who've never seen this: another fantastic flight by Capt. Dale Snodgrass.

Flight of the Twin Engine Cats-F7F Tigercat and the F-14 Tomcat

Which is a given in 99% of cases, which is why pilot skill is set aside in such discussions and the 'paper stats' of the aircraft are the relevant aspect. Pilot skill is an unknown and unforeseeable variable. ''Oh, I'll totally blow this dude away... if he's a noob and/or idiot'' Yeah. No shit.

 

 

 

 

 

I also agree an F-16 at stall speed would probably be less stable than an F-14 due to the delta wings. Regardless, it's a much lighter and more maneuverable aircraft to start with, so him ending up in that situation would be completely unnecessary.

 

As for whoever said 'there is no better this or that plane in WVR'...... that is blatant nonsensical BS. Yes. There are indeed better and worse aircraft in specific regimes, but there are also aircraft that are better ACROSS THE BOARD. That is an outright fact.

Only one source of BS here currently. :music_whistling:

Can you not see your arguments are completely redundant?

WVR covers all sorts of speed ranges, attitudes and energy states, any of which can at one moment provide a potential advantage to one aircraft over another, regardless of their perceived superiority in a specific regime.

Ergo it is completely up to the driver to analyse what advantages and disadvantages his aircraft has at any one instant in reference to his current position, attitude and energy state and attempt to fight the way that maximises his opportunity for a firing solution and minimises his enemies.

This "there must be a one fighter that wins in every eventuality" mentality (which is the logical extrapolation of your argument) is faintly ludicrous and an immature concept; every aircraft compromises something in one regime in order to gain a specific advantage in another and thusly the outcome of any fight depends on the organic matter holding the controls to make the choice as to how to use his aircrafts strengths against his opponents deficiencies.

Can y'all please take that conversation to another thread or PMs?

Can y'all please take that conversation to another thread or PMs?

No? What more is there to be said about the trailer? We've seen it, it's cool, there's nothing to discuss. Do you prefer only "+1" "yaaaaay" or "gib tomcat" comments in this thread?

@Robert

That seems reasonable, though, considering the relatively similar large size of an F-15, but with the wings optimised for higher speed flight. If an F-16 would struggle at stall speeds, the heavier F-15 would even more so. The swing wings of the F-14 do give it the considerably advantageous ability of altering its characteristics on the fly. If stall speed stability is its only advantage though, that's rather problematic.

Will this be capable of performing Capt. Dale "Snort" Snodgrass' signature take off as seen here at 1:41?

 

 

VFA-143 Pukin Dogs in the F-14b Tomcat

 

 

 

and those who've never seen this: another fantastic flight by Capt. Dale Snodgrass.

 

Flight of the Twin Engine Cats-F7F Tigercat and the F-14 Tomcat

VF!!!! VF-143

leave that VFA crap to the bugs and rhinos

VF!!!! VF-143

leave that VFA crap to the bugs and rhinos

Yikes! :noexpression: An unforgivable mistake. Right after coffee I'm leaping from a 1st floor window into a pricker bush.

Yikes! :noexpression: An unforgivable mistake. Right after coffee I'm leaping from a 1st floor window into a pricker bush.

LOL all good

Flash Gordon son of Flash, took on F15s from Langley and he also coughed a TF 30. He gunned them down with in engine.

There are 14 drivers that have gunned down F4, A4, F15, F16, f18.. etc. And vice versa. The F14 isn't as dated as you think.

Paper or chart flying doesn't tell the whole story. The F14 flew out of plane

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Expounding further, the luftwaffe mug 29 went against the f14a of the either the -41 or 14. They had gunzo matches, the 14a got some kills.

The 14a is a machine under 10k.

With GE engines and against the 15c, they were matched well. The only difference was roll rate. I spoke to a puking dog about kills on the 15c he said, they can do much against us, they can't out climb us anymore. They slow, we got them. What's rolling going to do?

A f16 aggressor pilot spoke about the 14. He said in a 250 knot fight spiraling upward, the cat is hard to beat with the GE. He said that the plane can get a snap shot on the 16 if they know how after merge.

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Can y'all please take that conversation to another thread or PMs?

Oh well......i guess i have to join it now.... :music_whistling:

Oh I don't know...Pete Bonanni doesn't think much of the Turkey as a BFMer.

Its a shame that he is not well-informed. :) But I can see how that would happen, he was bomber pilot.

:thumbup:

-Nick

Nah, he's an OK guy....for a Viper jock.... ;)

 

Don't take me wrong; but trying to match F-14A with the F-16C (early versions at least) in dogfighting, seems to me wishful thinking.

 

It is outclassed by the other jets I mentioned, in almost every aspects below:

 

- thrust to weight ratio;

- wing loading;

- instantaneous / sustained turn performance;

- turn radius;

- aerodynamic refinement;

Care to elaborate on each of these factors and how you managed to compute they add to the Viper's turn advantage across the board?

You mention, the low speed fight against the F-16.

From what I've read, close to 200 kts, the F-16 starts to lose a big part of its turning / nose pointing authority... but how good will the F-14A turn at 200 kts ?

In short:

With those wings + Leading edge devices (slats)... pretty damned well.

The long answer? At the angle of attack at which your viper will be too keep up with the Turkey that slow, there is NO engine in the KNOWN world that will produce enough thrust, to keep you falling from the sky.

There are indeed better and worse aircraft in specific regimes, but there are also aircraft that are better ACROSS THE BOARD. That is an outright fact.

In the same "generation" of AC???

You should take heed of Ferir here:

WVR covers all sorts of speed ranges, attitudes and energy states, any of which can at one moment provide a potential advantage to one aircraft over another, regardless of their perceived superiority in a specific regime.

 

Ergo it is completely up to the driver to analyse what advantages and disadvantages his aircraft has at any one instant in reference to his current position, attitude and energy state and attempt to fight the way that maximises his opportunity for a firing solution and minimises his enemies.

 

Care to elaborate on each of these factors and how you managed to compute they add to the Viper's turn advantage across the board?

 

What for ?

Isn't it obvious with so much info available through the web nowadays ?

For much I appraise the F-14A Tomcat (more than the F-16 for instance), one must acknowledge that the F-16 was created to excel at accelerating, climbing, turning, maneuvering, etc... from the drawing board.

I don't have any doubt the F-14A can hold its own in a dogfight, depending on the circumstances and opponents.

Neither I'm I part of the, "only an Interceptor" crowd.

But regarding BFM, dogfight, WVR, etc, trying to match it with, and say it's as capable as an F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29 in a pure machine vs machine comparison, doesn't make much sense to me.

Sure it can defeat any of those in a dogfight - it just takes a better pilot, but int therms of pure dogfight / meneuvering performance, it doesn't seem to be at the same level.

What for ?

Isn't it obvious with so much info available through the web nowadays ?

 

For much I appraise the F-14A Tomcat (more than the F-16 for instance), one must acknowledge that the F-16 was created to excel at accelerating, climbing, turning, maneuvering, etc... from the drawing board.

 

I don't have any doubt the F-14A can hold its own in a dogfight, depending on the circumstances and opponents.

Neither I'm I part of the, "only an Interceptor" crowd.

 

But regarding BFM, dogfight, WVR, etc, trying to match it with, and say it's as capable as an F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29 in a pure machine vs machine comparison, doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Sure it can defeat any of those in a dogfight - it just takes a better pilot, but int therms of pure dogfight / meneuvering performance, it doesn't seem to be at the same level.

Stick to video games and let the Pros handle it, thanks... My Uncle (The F-14 Pilot) would beg to differ... Anyone underestimating a Tomcat is about to get one hell of a wake up call...

Oh I don't know...Pete Bonanni doesn't think much of the Turkey as a BFMer.

What, you mean that guy with the advice that the best move in a dogfight is to point your vector at the bandit and pull??? :doh::smilewink:

 

 

Nah, he's an OK guy....for a Viper jock.... ;)

You ridiculous man-child. You realize that from your computer game armchair, you are insulting someone who actually flew fighters? (And was an expert, as well?) You act like you're some kind of exceptional expert. You really don't know a damn thing, and you're the reason flight sim enthusiasts are looked down upon. What a shame.

Stick to video games and let the Pros handle it, thanks... My Uncle (The F-14 Pilot) would beg to differ... Anyone underestimating a Tomcat is about to get one hell of a wake up call...

Simply replying with an insult and anecdotal evidence? What is the need for that?

Surely this thread is about appreciating all the hard work that HB is doing for us. Not a silly "My dad could beat up your dad" game...

Stick to video games and let the Pros handle it, thanks... My Uncle (The F-14 Pilot) would beg to differ... Anyone underestimating a Tomcat is about to get one hell of a wake up call...

Stick to Hammer of Thor comics and let the Pros handle it, thanks... My great-great-grandfather (The Blériot XI Pilot) would beg to differ... Anyone underestimating a Blériot XI is about to get one hell of a wake up call...

I have way too little time to moderate. :)

Keep it civil guys.

You're right, sorry.

By the way, great to see the accurate AIM-9 emplyoment modes / HUD symbology features, at the DCS F-14 Gameplay Live Stream video - 01:27:55.

(AIM-9 Boresight SCAN pattern.)

This really is a "key" feature for me, as many sims never payed much attention to this kind of details when portrying the Tomcat and other jets.

(Many times, regarding the AIM-9, they would just feature some kind of universal point-and-shoot arcadish feature.)

Was waiting for this kind of detailed features a long time ago.

What for ?

Isn't it obvious with so much info available through the web nowadays ?

.........

But regarding BFM, dogfight, WVR, etc, trying to match it with, and say it's as capable as an F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29 in a pure machine vs machine comparison, doesn't make much sense to me.

Exactly. It's exactly the info i'm talking about. Take the E-M diagrams for both the F-14A and the F-16C (easily available online), but them side by side. And tell me what you're seeing :thumbup:

You ridiculous man-child. You realize that from your computer game armchair, you are insulting someone who actually flew fighters? (And was an expert, as well?) You act like you're some kind of exceptional expert. You really don't know a damn thing, and you're the reason flight sim enthusiasts are looked down upon. What a shame.

To me it's a greater shame when people don't have a sense of humor, but hey, that's just me.

But if we are being serious on the subject, i never said he wasn't a good pilot. But that fact that he was, doesn't make him right in some of the statements he makes in that old Falcon instructional video. It wouldn't be the first time in history that an exert was wrong, or at least not right about something. Like that German guy, that won the Nobel price back in the day for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect? And some other bunch of minor stuff like Special and General Relativity? That same guy kept insisting (down to his grave) that Quantum mechanics can't possibly describe the nature of reality.......oh well.....to each their own, i guess....

I have way too little time to moderate. :)

 

Keep it civil guys.

If i have made any uncivil statements, i apologize and please feel free to remove them. I'm ready to be banned and/or suspended from the official forums as well.

Cheers guys, and safe flying!

i never said he wasn't a good pilot. But that fact that he was, doesn't make him right in some of the statements he makes in that old Falcon instructional video. It wouldn't be the first time in history that an exert was wrong, or at least not right about something

Again, as civilly as I know how this time, you have no idea the amount of training, study, and effort that goes into knowing what that guy knows, and you don't have the grace to act like you don't. (Or at least make jokes that don't show off your lack of respect.) Have you considered that you're talking about a video/book made for video game nerds in the 90s, and that he was speaking at the lowest level to amateur hobbyists?

Sorry, no backtracking on how you've presented yourself.

Again, as civilly as I know how this time, you have no idea the amount of training, study, and effort that goes into knowing what that guy knows, and you don't have the grace to act like you don't. (Or at least make jokes that don't show off your lack of respect.) Have you considered that you're talking about a video/book made for video game nerds in the 90s, and that he was speaking at the lowest level to amateur hobbyists?

 

Sorry, no backtracking on how you've presented yourself.

Backtracking? Oh no no no, don't get me wrong, i stand behind everything i said (i am an evil person after all). It doesn't matter what that guy knows and can do (i'm pretty sure the DoD didn't pay him to look nice). I'm referring to what he says. And no amount of "authority" from a guy (be he a fighter pilot, or heck, even a pope or something) will prevent me from critiquing obvious blunders (or trying to make jokes about it). Hence why the Einstein reference. If this behavior goes against the rules of the forums, then i shall excuse myself.

EDIT: that video may have been made for the lowest level use, but in case you haven't noticed, some people seam to take it as a word of God.