Air-Air Refueling

Nope. After a long mission, I tried for 10+ minutes to even spot the drogue of an S-3 tanker, while my squadmates frantically checked the NATOPS and key assignments, but nothing helped, probe and drogue were just completely, entirely pitch black, regardless of master light switch and any other light switch I could find in the pit.

 

"Luckily", one of my squad mates had already crashed and guided me to the nearest airport via F10 map, where I landed with 500 lbs of fuel left. ;)

If you aren't using the radio menu, the drogue won't be released and their lights won't come on. I've been doing night AAR without any problems and it's as easy as day time.

It's funny how some people find some airframes easy and some really hard. For me I think the Harrier is the easiest of all the aircraft to Air refuel... maybe it's because the basket is out of sight so you don't end up focusing on it by mistake.

 

 

The mirage I absolutely HATE trying to refuel in due to the lack of nose down pitch... it drove me mad.

 

 

The F18 I find to be of average difficulty... it's harder to stay connected due to the engine lag, but connecting isn't too bad.

TBH, all of them are as easy as the other

If you aren't using the radio menu, the drogue won't be released and their lights won't come on. I've been doing night AAR without any problems and it's as easy as day time.

I was once able to spot a shadowy drogue outline against the right outer wing position light of the S-3, so I believe it was actually in the out/released position while I was behind the tanker.

That was either on release day or the day after that. When I find the time, I'll try again and check if the new updates changed anything. Just saying, in my one attempt at night AAR, it didn't work out too well for me. ;)

F/A-18s definitely have a probe light. If anyone knows where the switch is or what the key bind is, please share. FYI max speed for the KC-130 refueling drogue is 250 KIAS. Can't speak to the -135 or the S-3, but if anyone was wondering about any realistic limitations, there's one for you.

I'm using the CH products HOTAS with 20 on curves I can fly with the tanker but I can't keep the speed with it(the throttle path is very short, I guess it is relatively easy in the real hornet).

Are there any tricks for it? (in game or in the CH control manager?)

Update: Maybe it's a silly idea but I'll try with some air brakes on when I get home.

I'm really not getting you...

 

 

Are you saying you don't like using the ME & just expect other people to provide you with well set up missions ?

 

 

 

Are you saying "never stare into the sun" is a popular adage, so it isn't true ?, or 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar' is true, so people mustn't like it as an idea ?

I find your premise rather morose, considering your title, and your assumption of worth based on effort connected to software tweaking and tuning. I expect a fluid living world with which to frolic, is part of the contract , both financial and tangible- it's called digital combat simulator, not super menu deluxe.

My secondary point was more personal, in that the tendency is to frill and flower any criticism in platitudes and apologetics especially in an environment rife with elitism and dogmatic fanboy think- I was simply ascribing a preamble to my thought process- I don't got time to blow smoke based on what is currently acceptable, I speak plainly, and I am to the point.

My point being, that at this level, and this amount of time and money, on both sides of the development pipeline I don't fear making a judgment and saying it's either laziness or lack of production ethos, or a clear vision. It strikes me as production novices, wanking around in the darkness, being shoe strung and sandbagged around by early access monies and oft made promises, seldom kept deadlines and schedules.

I am of the generation who purchased completed finished games and software, complete with bible length manuals, which had to pass QA and legal with no bugs or locks, because internet updates were slow or unavailable...

your (abstraction)willingness to pay 60 dollars for an unfinished piece of software is neither my place to judge, or a good or bad black and white binary, but I do have the luxury of saying, it used to be better when we bought finished products, and in the same breathe, we took things a little less seriously- this hurts final production quality, as well as the narrative of critiques and constructive criticism.

leads many with similar dispositions (not that there are many who think critically when it comes to budgets and wants) to vote with their feet and their wallet. Flight sim market in general is captured by this business ethos, in hardware and HOTAS, in software, VR, and licensing- there is this unspoken notion that this is what it costs,prohibitive- in time, in effort, in education or software proficiency... Balderdash!

But I am only one man, and you can't make everyone happy. I am resigned to accepting my critique comes from a very hyper critical and detail oriented, auteur place in reality- I accept that I am not the everyman, and one unit here or there will not break the coffer, however I have the impression that this isn't exactly sliced bread at the top of the week, for the many reasons I've laid out, and last time I checked, no one willingly paid full price for half a loaf.

My point being, that at this level, and this amount of time and money, on both sides of the development pipeline I don't fear making a judgment and saying it's either laziness or lack of production ethos, or a clear vision. It strikes me as production novices, wanking around in the darkness, being shoe strung and sandbagged around by early access monies and oft made promises, seldom kept deadlines and schedules.

 

I am of the generation who purchased completed finished games and software, complete with bible length manuals, which had to pass QA and legal with no bugs or locks, because internet updates were slow or unavailable...

 

your (abstraction)willingness to pay 60 dollars for an unfinished piece of software is neither my place to judge, or a good or bad black and white binary, but I do have the luxury of saying, it used to be better when we bought finished products, and in the same breathe, we took things a little less seriously- this hurts final production quality, as well as the narrative of critiques and constructive criticism.

 

leads many with similar dispositions (not that there are many who think critically when it comes to budgets and wants) to vote with their feet and their wallet. Flight sim market in general is captured by this business ethos, in hardware and HOTAS, in software, VR, and licensing- there is this unspoken notion that this is what it costs,prohibitive- in time, in effort, in education or software proficiency... Balderdash!

 

But I am only one man, and you can't make everyone happy. I am resigned to accepting my critique comes from a very hyper critical and detail oriented, auteur place in reality- I accept that I am not the everyman, and one unit here or there will not break the coffer, however I have the impression that this isn't exactly sliced bread at the top of the week, for the many reasons I've laid out, and last time I checked, no one willingly paid full price for half a loaf.

mmm, can you point to any software that is at the same level or anywhere even close to ED's level, in this type of cutting edge tech....? They also build IRL training software too. This is part of there business and also helps expand the consumer side so we all benefit in this small niche. Yes, it can be slow going at times and annoying, but man it's really starting to pay dividends now, so much is moving forward and from where I sit things are going well.

Just my 2 cents

and last time I checked, no one willingly paid full price for half a loaf.

What more do you think you want for your monies worth? ED would be much better off building simple goat simulators and FB apps. I'm glad there not tho and must love to build these high tech apps for us and commercial customers. They still always have to put up with the bunch of entitled children at times I guess.

Practice practice practice.....from all my years of AAR it made it easy peasy in the Hornet

Nice job.

Can you eventually show you throttle curves, if modified from defaults. I still guess mine are not ideally set. And the Stick axis tuning too, please.

Thanks

Flying 8.000...but the tanker is not a 8.000! And always turning, never a straight path..It´s impossible!!!! Jesus!!! Need adivises...no matter what I do I'm always jumping from side to side

Flying 8.000...but the tanker is not a 8.000! And always turning, never a straight path..It´s impossible!!!! Jesus!!! Need adivises...no matter what I do I'm always jumping from side to side

Can you eventually show you throttle curves, if modified from defaults. I still guess mine are not ideally set.

why would anyone want curves on the throttle? you want a linear response so the results are predictable. for me curves are a red herring. it seems logical at first that larger stick movements would be conducive to heavy handed newbies but less curve for quicker, faster response is imo more desirable. refining your own motor control so you're not so heavy handed is easily done with regular practice.

anywys maybe if you submitted a short replay or video then we can point out more specifically what issues are plaguing your efforts.

Yea I never had luck with the instant action misison.

avoiding it only covers up the problem imo, being able to aar is an issue of disciplined flying and so should be able to be done under any parameters.

avoiding it only covers up the problem imo, being able to aar is an issue of disciplined flying and so should be able to be done under any parameters.

Would you please share how to improve my skills? I mean, to make a optimum landing, I practice more than 100 landings in VFR and pattern landings...but I had Wags video as clue and reference. But in AAR, the people says to trim lot, but as far as I know the F18 has Auto Trim and you cannot trim, unless you are with gear down. Is it correct?

Thanks!

why would anyone want curves on the throttle? you want a linear response so the results are predictable. for me curves are a red herring. it seems logical at first that larger stick movements would be conducive to heavy handed newbies but less curve for quicker, faster response is imo more desirable. refining your own motor control so you're not so heavy handed is easily done with regular practice.

anywys maybe if you submitted a short replay or video then we can point out more specifically what issues are plaguing your efforts.

 

 

avoiding it only covers up the problem imo, being able to aar is an issue of disciplined flying and so should be able to be done under any parameters.

I've not had trouble refueling in the A10c and most people say that's harder but for me the f18 seems more difficult.

Yea trim with auto flaps is very very very slow and seems to mess with the fcs so I don't use trim with auto flaps, mainly when landing in full flaps.

As for landing, when you drop gear and flaps at 250 knots, hold the stick level and then trim up or down to get the E bracket centered with the velocity vector. You will have to bring the power up once you drop speed to around 140 knots. If you trimmed correctly you can relieve the stick and should be able to use just throttle to ascend and descend. Easier said than done that's for sure. Takes a lot of practice.

Flying 8.000...but the tanker is not a 8.000! And always turning, never a straight path..It´s impossible!!!! Jesus!!! Need adivises...no matter what I do I'm always jumping from side to side

Made you a quick training mission where the Tanker isn´t always turning.

You will airstart close behind at around 50% fuel.

Texaco orbits North/ South between WP 1 and 2

15000 @ 300 GS (236 KIA)

TCN 75Y

Contact at Preset 1

Hope that helps somewhat.

VFA_81_TR_Refuel.miz

Made you a quick training mission where the Tanker isn´t always turning.

You will airstart close behind at around 50% fuel.

 

Texaco orbits North/ South between WP 1 and 2

15000 @ 300 GS (236 KIA)

TCN 75Y

Contact at Preset 1

 

Hope that helps somewhat.

Going to go give this a shot now.

But in AAR, the people says to trim lot, but as far as I know the F18 has Auto Trim and you cannot trim, unless you are with gear down.

i never trim. to me, trimming is the wrong sort of mentality. what you need to understand is that you will need to give up on the pursuit of the hands off stable state -- that's a fantasy. your throttle hand will always be moving.

here's the kicker: because your throttle will always be moving, you'll always be accelerating or decelerating to some degree, and anytime you accelerate, you will start to climb, and anytime you decelerate, you will start to descend. you need to anticipate your throttle shifts and coordinate with minor pitch corrections to check these tendencies before they fully manifest.

try to relax. the harder you struggle, the more crude your motions can get, which just compounds the problem on itself. if the oscillations get away from you, just let everything go, give yourself some distance, and reset the process.

Yup that's what I notice. Trim messes you up and my biggest problem is getting myself lined up with the probe. Using the provided misison above I was able to connect once for like 10 seconds before the tanker starts a shallow turn. After that it seemed like he was making a very small bank so I could not realign myself.

I notice the hardest part for me is lining up with the probe..once connected I can pretty much keep throttle up a bit when I first connect and then reduce it a bit and then increase a little and I stay connected. It's the banking that mess me up and will have to work on.

But just getting myself aligned with the left side of the probe is the biggest issues. Maintaining level flight I don't seem to have an issue. It's the whole not being in the dead center like the a10 that's throwing me off I think.

Edit: Just read Chuck's guide and he says trim duirng aerial refueling. So I guess we are supposed to. I always trimmed in the A10 before I connected. But trim here in auto flaps mode is so so slow.

Yup that's what I notice. Trim messes you up and my biggest problem is getting myself lined up with the probe. Using the provided misison above I was able to connect once for like 10 seconds before the tanker starts a shallow turn. After that it seemed like he was making a very small bank so I could not realign myself.

 

I notice the hardest part for me is lining up with the probe..once connected I can pretty much keep throttle up a bit when I first connect and then reduce it a bit and then increase a little and I stay connected. It's the banking that mess me up and will have to work on.

 

But just getting myself aligned with the left side of the probe is the biggest issues. Maintaining level flight I don't seem to have an issue. It's the whole not being in the dead center like the a10 that's throwing me off I think.

 

Edit: Just read Chuck's guide and he says trim duirng aerial refueling. So I guess we are supposed to. I always trimmed in the A10 before I connected. But trim here in auto flaps mode is so so slow.

I found that the Hornet does not need to be trimmed during AAR, the Harrier would be another story. But in the end, do what works best for you.

As for pointers on what to look for when lining up - Mavericks tutorial is already linked second page of this thread. Have a look, no better one out there.

Made you a quick training mission where the Tanker isn´t always turning.

You will airstart close behind at around 50% fuel.

 

Texaco orbits North/ South between WP 1 and 2

15000 @ 300 GS (236 KIA)

TCN 75Y

Contact at Preset 1

 

Hope that helps somewhat.

Thank You very much!:thumbup:

i never trim. to me, trimming is the wrong sort of mentality. what you need to understand is that you will need to give up on the pursuit of the hands off stable state -- that's a fantasy. your throttle hand will always be moving.

here's the kicker: because your throttle will always be moving, you'll always be accelerating or decelerating to some degree, and anytime you accelerate, you will start to climb, and anytime you decelerate, you will start to descend. you need to anticipate your throttle shifts and coordinate with minor pitch corrections to check these tendencies before they fully manifest.

 

try to relax. the harder you struggle, the more crude your motions can get, which just compounds the problem on itself. if the oscillations get away from you, just let everything go, give yourself some distance, and reset the process.

Thank You!!:thumbup:

I found that the Hornet does not need to be trimmed during AAR, the Harrier would be another story. But in the end, do what works best for you.

 

As for pointers on what to look for when lining up - Mavericks tutorial is already linked second page of this thread. Have a look, no better one out there.

Once you have a good idea and technique of how to line up and move forward, it should be just a matter of focus. Every aircraft has it's own quirks where you have to find something that works for you and not deviate from that pattern each time.

Impossible man...I'll give up for while

Nice job.

 

 

 

Can you eventually show you throttle curves, if modified from defaults. I still guess mine are not ideally set. And the Stick axis tuning too, please.

 

 

Thanks

No mods to the throttles curves. I have my pitch and roll axis curves set to 25.

For basket lineup, there is a little “sight” on the top right of the HUD, a little black cross in a circle. Line the basket up with that sight and close in, once very close switch to a reference on the tanker and fly off that.

Edit: and reading Chuck’s guide, I see that this “sight” is for calibrating the JHMCS. Oh well, it also works well for AAR!

After a few hours of practice with S3 orbiting at 330 kts I think I became fairly good at matching the tanker's bank angle, closure speed, being able to plug in on the first try, etc.

That's where my "skill" ends :(

I just can't stay connected for more then 5 seconds! In a straight and level with other tankers -different story. I'm beginning to think that there might be a slight difference in flight modelling between the AI a/c and flyable high fidelity models (i.e. slips when turning, etc.) and yes, it could just be me, hehe.

Also, I think the basket should not disengage after being pushed straight in couple of feet. I really tried to pay attention to my position with the tanker. I haven't tried dumbing down the stick curves yet. I'd love to have Super Hornet's FPAH mode here (not used for this purpose in RL though).

Anyways, can someone post a vid. showing "passing" gas from S3 in a turn... would greatly appreciate it.