REALLY cold start procedure? Mi-8 not starting in winter

I have mission where I set dynamic weather on -34'C (it's winter) and night. While the Mi starts up okay in Nalchik it refuses to in a valley between mountains between Nalchik and Kutaisi. The engines RPM reaches to somewhere 17-20% before returning back to 0, even WITH autostart!

It simply refuses to start, even with multiple attempts.

Does cold-weather start have a different procedure than normal "cold ramp start"? Is it needed to first warm up the engines somehow? If yes, how? Well, except for lighting a fire under the beast's belly, literally, that is. :smilewink:

Cause I refuse to believe that the Mi-8, known for operating even in Arctic conditions and Himalaya, is incapable of starting at the balmy -34.

PS: is there an outside-temp gauge somewhere in the Mi-8?

Can we have the mission or the location of the farp ?

I would like to try.

Navigator side, on the glass just under to armement panel.

Edit: As a picture is better thant a long bad explaination

Can we have the mission or the location of the farp ?

I would like to try.

 

Navigator side, on the glass just under to armement panel.

Of course they will hide such a useful instrument somewhere out of the way. facepalm

FARP location is:

LAT 43° 41' 12" N

LONG 43° 07' 27" E

Turbulence is 9 m/s (I had originally set over 40 to make plane take-off and landing a bit challenging, but that sadly made choppers practically unflyable - especially in the mountains).

Thanks! :beer:

Are you sure about your coordinates ? It's not a valley between Nalchik and Kutaisi.

Anyway, i set -34° in ME. At Nalchik, i've got -38° and start engines was a little more longer.

At FARP, i've got -40 and i can't manage to start engines.

I don't know what is the minimum requirement to start in this condition.

Are you sure about your coordinates ? It's not a valley between Nalchik and Kutaisi.

Anyway, i set -34° in ME. At Nalchik, i've got -38° and start engines was a little more longer.

At FARP, i've got -40 and i can't manage to start engines.

I don't know what is the minimum requirement to start in this condition.

Oh, crap, I mistyped, it's 43°14' not 41'!

By the book, minimum temperature for just about everything is -40C. This includes engine start, operation of any of the three gearboxes, as well as flying in general. Perhaps the game simulates this by failing to start below that temperature? Nothing in real life prevents you from trying, other than the flight manual limitation.

By the book, minimum temperature for just about everything is -40C. This includes engine start, operation of any of the three gearboxes, as well as flying in general. Perhaps the game simulates this by failing to start below that temperature? Nothing in real life prevents you from trying, other than the flight manual limitation.

But don't in IRL pilots have ways of prepping/warming up the engine before trying to start? Otherwise, how do the Mi's in Siberia or Himalaya etc. do any of the work we can see them do...

Would be nice if the game would take not just dry manuals into account, but RL facts and experiences as well (for example, Afghanistan showed the engineers that these choppers can take much more punishment and perform much harsher maneuvers than they thought and safely overexceed limits that were written in manuals).

I suppose it depends on the specific version of the helicopter, but for example, in our flight manuals for the Mi-17V-5...

"Operation of the helicopter is allowed at ambient temperature within the range of -50 to +50C."

In the flight manual for our Mi-172, it says...

"It is allowed to perform flights at a maximum ambient air temperature of plus 50C and at a minimum ambient air temperature of minus 40C."

In all of our Mi-8MTV-1 and Mi-17-1V flight manuals I could find, the ambient air temperature range is -50 to +50C.

Again, this is not just for starting, but for operation and flying.

There are spots on the aircraft for attaching heaters, but this is because it's easy for the aircraft to be below the minimum temperature even though the ambient air is not, as in early in the morning, before the aircraft has a time to "warm up" in the sun and has cold soaked overnight.

If the aircraft are operating in colder temperatures than -50C, then they must have a supplement that allows for that, including a completely different set of fuels and oils than are normally used.

Also, I don't mean to poke fun at you, but this is pretty funny...

But don't in IRL pilots have ways of prepping/warming up the engine before trying to start?

No, the pilots don't. The maintenance/ground crew do, however. :P

Didn't check your location but could it be an altitude issue rather than a temperature one? Lack of enough air pressure preventing combustion for the APU?

I have never tried it at these temps but I will soon.

Perhaps external power and all anti ice devices on for a few mins. Perhaps the KO-50 heater is more critical at these temps, is it used to pre heat Fuel ?

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143573&page=3

I have never tried it at these temps but I will soon.

Perhaps external power and all anti ice devices on for a few mins. Perhaps the KO-50 heater is more critical at these temps, is it used to pre heat Fuel

Thanks for the link! It will be nice when we get this update, flying at all temps. Sadly, it seems that gunners are still a long way off, if ever. :(

Hopefully the heater won't be only in DCS 3 as I've seen posts from 2008 claiming that DCS 2 will be "out soon". Now it's almost Q4 2015 and still waiting...

Didn't check your location but could it be an altitude issue rather than a temperature one? Lack of enough air pressure preventing combustion for the APU?

Well, ME says alt is 1609m. Nalchik is 430 - the elevation difference is not that apparent when you're on the map, but that alt in real life already has effect on engines.

Quickly jumped into the mission during daytime and it was -45°C. Set dynamic weather to -15 and in that valley it was still almost -30. :doh: But at least the engines started okay.

The FARP is located right next to what is a village in ME, with buildings and everything. Strangely, in the game it is normal ground texture with some smudges here and there (no buildings or even trees) with the provision of one large yellow light turning on when it gets dark enough. Didn't know smuges are classified as buildings and villages. O.o Was quite surprised when I first spawned there and no village anywhere - at first thought I chose the wrong aircraft to spawn into. :D

EDIT: APU starts okay, even if a bit cold. It's the engines that won't turn over... getting to 17% and then dying.

Perhaps the KO-50 heater is more critical at these temps, is it used to pre heat Fuel ?

 

The fuel pre-heater for the KO-50 is only for the KO-50 itself.

 

APU starts okay, even if a bit cold. It's the engines that won't turn over... getting to 17% and then dying.

 

That's about as fast as the engines will spin without lighting off (they'll get a but above 20% in warmer weather). So it seems like the game is preventing fuel from igniting in the engines below -40C. The KO-50, as mentioned above, preheats its fuel, so it would work with just external power, but it only warms the cabin and cockpit, so that's not very helpful in-game.

 

The APU, by the book, can be started and operated at altitudes up to 4000m and within an ambient temperature range of -60C to +60C, so that may explain why the APU starts and the engines won't. Try setting it to below -60C and see if the APU still starts? I would love to try it, but I'm about to eat pizza and watch Star Wars with my 6-year old daughter.

I was able to start APU at 4100m with -50°C in ME.

It was nearly to burn, 880°C.

I can find a spot little higher because at 5700 (Mt Elbrus), it doesn't start.

but it only warms the cabin and cockpit, so that's not very helpful in-game.

So, basically, we'll be getting/development time and effort is being spent on an ability that is not much or of no use, a decoration, instead of being spent on something useful/needed/requested like ability to pre-heat fuel/engines/generator in order to start in cold climate (climate that is regular in parts of the developer's native country) or on-board gunners or bomb-sight or any of the number of stuff that was requested and are still not implemented? :(

^I realize that was maybe a bit harsh, but this realization just shocked and upset me, especially with last year's 6-or-more months with no updates on Mi-8 in order to get F-86 and Mig-15 out; coupled with the unbelievably long time it took to get the flight manual out.

Personally, I would rather get fewer new features that are systems that are useful than more features that are little more than switches to throw that don't do anything meaningful and are more appropriate for a module that is not still in Beta.

I would love to try it, but I'm about to eat pizza and watch Star Wars with my 6-year old daughter.

Agree on the much higher priority of SW education! :thumbup: Started also SW classes with my 6 years old too. Mom is not too happy but father and son are! :smilewink:

The KO-50 heater would be useful if we get window fogging in DCS.

The KO-50 heater would be useful if we get window fogging in DCS.

You planning on getting some impressionable Russian girl in the chopper and take her to heaven and back or how would you fog up your windows? ;-) :D

You planning on getting some impressionable Russian girl in the chopper and take her to heaven and back or how would you fog up your windows? ;-) :D

Every time I get into VRS my heart rate goes up and fogs the windows.

The Mi-8 is the only woman I need.

The Mi-8 is the only woman I need.

Ummm... no. You just need a prettier second pilot :kiss:

As far as I understand what I read in the Kazan Mi-8/17 manual I found on the internet, in case of cold weather it's needed to:

- Leave APU running 1 minute before anything else (whatever the weather)

- Below -5°C, you have to perform 1 crank per engine before starting (Crank engine 1, crank engine 2, start engine 1, start engine 2)

- Below -20°C you have to perform 2 cranks per engine before starting (Crank engine 1, crank engine 2, crank engine 1, crank engine 2, start engine 1, start engine 2)

- Wait until both engines parameters show the same values before accelerating

- And because it's cold, don't forget to operate the KO-50 fuel combustion heater to heat the cabin :smilewink:

Hi everyones,

I am actualy trying to start a Mi-8 with Cold weather ( -35°C ) and the double Crank per engine doesnt seem to work.

Do i need to open the Fuel valve ( The red levers up head ) while Cranking the engine ?

Any patch did broke this procedure ?

After starting the APU, have you tried turning on the engine de-icer for both engines? On the de-iced panel above the commanders head, Flip the switch from auto to manual then flip the switches for each engine to on and wait for all three green lights to come on..

i tried a lot of things.

I'll try this one Too and let you know. I also tried to put external power unit on a lil' farp to help my anti ice work better. But i dont know if i can put AntiDust or not. Does it helps or not ?

I found luck with opening the fuel valve as soon as I command starts. Gets it started in frigid temps on the Mountain Farp (~6,000ft) in TTI MP server.

Do you remember what was the temperature?