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[RESOLVED]Electric circuit problem


OG84

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Hi,

 

after the latest patch, I have a problem with the electrical system.

 

When i switch on the cannons, the cockpit light and gunsight is flickering and then some fuses get blown.

 

:huh:

 

I did not completely work through the manual yet, just a quick look into the startup section. I might look through the full manual on the upcoming weekend.

 

I was using the battery for startup, could that be a reason for the electrical problem mid flight?

 

It is reproducable.

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  • 1 month later...

This has been solved. take a look in the bugs section.

it is not a bug, but rather an operating error from pilot :)

Favorite module: F16C 💥
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This has been solved. take a look in the bugs section.

it is not a bug, but rather an operating error from pilot :)

 

Hi guys, good news.

 

I’ve been flying the Anton quite a bit lately because I am converting a campaign to it.

 

I managed to find a solution. What I can figure out of it is that the generator is simulated as quite weak. Let me tell what’s been working to me so far. I am sorry if this is old for any of you.

 

Make the cockpit preparation as usual. Do not arm any gun at this point, but you may close CBs P80, P1 and P2.

Perform the engine start;

Remember to turn on the PITOT and to maintain at lease 1.200rpm

Set flaps for takeoff and open the gear cover.

Perform the takeoff.

Once with airborne and positive climb, command Gear up. Maintain speed bellow 250km/h. (Up to 300km/h although wrong it will retract, but reduce the engine!)

Observe the gear lights from green to red. Red means it’s locked up. Check wing gear indications pins retracted as well.

Once you see Undercarriage red lights, command flap up.

Once you see zero on the wing you may accelerate.

Once stablished on a safe climb, command Gun Safety Switch 1 (the top one for the cowling guns) to ON (up position). Now WAIT!!

Wait for at least 4 gun red lights to come on, indicating they are ready. Eventually all 6 will turn ON.

Once you see at least 4 gun red lights, command Gun Safety Switch II (wing cannons) to ON (up position).

Now command the stick safety switch to open.

Keep an eye on the PITOT light. If it goes our, GENERATOR CB tripped. Put it back in.

If you reduce too much power, GEN CB may trip as well.

 

Since I started doing it I only had the GEN CB tripped twice (in many many flights).

 

I will also open a thread about it just to highlight to everybody.

 

I wish you good luck. Soon I will publish a campaign with 10 missions for the 190 A-8.

 

All the best,

 

Sydy


Edited by Sydy
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[REPORTED]Anton´s Generator/Electrical bus not working properly

 

Case 1.1:

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB in

 

Engine RPM ~1800, arming the inner four weapons first, then the outer ones does not trip the Generator CB

 

 

Case 1.2:

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB in

 

Engine RPM above 2400, arming the inner four weapons, Generator CB trips off

 

-> RPM connected to arming the weapons and Gen CB tripping

 

 

Case 2.1

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB out

 

Engine RPM ~1800, arming the inner four weapons does not trip the Generator CB

 

-> Same result as Case 1.1. Electrical load is low enough to not trip the Gen CB. Does the battery get charged at 1800rpm?

 

 

Case 2.2

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB out

 

Engine RPM ~2400, arming the inner four weapons first, then the outer ones does not trip the Generator CB

 

-> No Overload. Without the Battery connected, the Generator´s CB has no overcurrent. But above 2000rpm the uv-light flicker, which points to another problem.

 

 

Case 3.1

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB in

 

Engine RPM ~1800, firing the inner(4) weapons only, the Generator CB trips off after ~3 seconds. The Battery can sustain the firing mechanism till the ammunition is depleted.

 

-> I couldn´t find a warning/caution/note in the real Anton´s Handbook, that prolonged burst are prohibited or cause problems.

But it is mentioned that the inner 4 weapons are to be cocked first and the 2 outer weapons after to prevent circuit/battery overload. This is mentioned several times.

And in DCS:FW-190A8 this 6-weapon-cocking-overload is modeled.

In the chapter for weapons testing the amount of ammunition for testing is mentioned, but nothing about overloading the circuit, if fired for a longer period of time.

 

 

Case 3.2

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB in

 

Engine RPM ~2200, firing the inner(4) weapons only, the Generator CB trips off after ~3 seconds. The Battery can sustain the firing mechanism till the ammunition is depleted.

 

 

Case 4.1

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB out

 

Engine RPM ~1800, firing the inner(4) weapons only till ammunition is depleted, the Generator CB does not trip.

 

-> 4 Weapons firing without charging the battery does not overload the generator

 

 

Case 4.2

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB out

 

Engine RPM ~2200, firing the inner(4) weapons only till ammunition is depleted, the Generator CB does not trip.

 

-> 4 Weapons firing without charging the battery does not overload the generator. Change in RPM does not change this behaviour

 

 

Case 5.1

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB in

 

Engine RPM ~1800, firing all weapons, 2-3sec total -> Gen trip, 3-4sec total -> Battery trip

 

 

Case 5.2

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB in

 

Engine RPM ~2200, firing all weapons, 2-3sec total -> Gen trip, 3-4sec total -> Battery trip

 

-> Too high load for Generator and Battery. RPM irrelevant.

 

 

Case 6.1

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB out

 

Engine RPM ~1900, firing all weapons, 2-3sec total -> Gen trip

 

 

Case 6.2

 

Generator CB in

Battery CB out

 

Engine RPM ~2400, firing all weapons, 2-3sec total -> Gen trip

 

-> Too high load of the Generator regardless of whether it charges the Battery or not, and regardless of the RPM.

 

 

Conclusion:

1. The Generator changes its behaviour around 2000rpm. The current for charging the Battery together with the weapon cocking and rpm above 2000 causes problems. That´s what many see as Gen CB trip inflight.

 

2. Firing all 4 inner Weapons at once overloads the Generator(CB) when the Battery is connected. Can happen inflight.

 

3. Firing all 6 Weapons at once(even if depleted, the mechanism draws the same current, tested this before), overloads the electrical system within 2-3 seconds. Does happen inflight. How is this system supposed to work with 8 total guns as A-8/R1?

 

 

 

 

 

 

12 Tracks as zip file attached.

 

 

Fox

Anton electrical trks.zip

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interim fix for "popping" CB's (at least when firing guns/cannons)

 

First and foremost I wonder why this hasn´t been fixed yet, since it has been around for quite some time.

 

 

But I have found an interim fix for the CB's to pop when firing the guns and cannons.

 

 

Find this file: G:\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\FW-190A8\Cockpit\Scripts\Systems\weapon_system.lua

Backup this file, then open it and change these values:

 

 

ElecConsumerParamsGunHeater = {80, true, 5, 7}

ElecConsumerParamsGunFireSolenoid = {24, true, 15, 17} <-- Change the value from 240 to 24

ElecConsumerParamsMachineGunLoader = {30, true, 15, 17} <-- Change the value from 300 to 30

ElecConsumerParamsCannonLoader = {35, true, 15, 17} <-- Change the value from 350 to 35

ElecConsumerParamsGunCamera = {20, true, 18, 19} -- 10 watt for camera, and 10 for camera heater

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It's not a bug. The guns overheat, and resist more. The Anton has a weak electric system, so it can't take the load and it pops.

 

Let the guns cool, and don't go hail Mary on the trigger

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It might had a weak electrical system, but I really doubt that it was this weak without being fixed IRL.

The CB's might have been popped occasionally, but not each and every time.

 

 

It´s not the guns overheating, but rather the electrical solenoids overloading the CB's.

If IRL the CB's had been this weak, then I´m sure that Kurt Tank had them replaced and upgraded the Generator to take the load.

 

 

Also it shouldn´t be the Gen and Bat CB's that would pop, but rater the CB's got the guns/cannons, since they would definitly be of a lower amp. rating that the "Main" Bat and Gen CB's.

 

 

Also the CB for the landing gear should be this weak. For me it pops 50% of the time regardless wether I keep airspeed during retraction below 250 km/h and keep the aircraft steady i.e not pulling any noticable G's.


Edited by fjacobsen

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No chance this is in any way a realistic recreation. Must be a bug. The outer wing cannons could be replaced by a double cannon arrangement of the same type. So instead of 2+4 it could be equipped with 2+6. And the real Flightmanual doesn't say anything about maximum burst time. You can not reload all 6 guns at once, hence the additional little switch, but no burst limit. Such a vital information would have been in the manual.

 

Thanks fjacobsen

 

Fox

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If you know the units, then you could change them according to the technical specification found on the internet (see below, I hope the translation is correct)

 

MG151/20:

 

Operating Voltage: 22-29V

Consumption during firing: 4A

Power consumption during recharging: 1.5A at 24V

Power consumption of the electric lock during firing: 0.25A at 24V

 

MG131 is identical.


Edited by razo+r
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If you know the units, then you could change them according to the technical specification found on the internet (see below, I hope the translation is correct)

 

MG151/20:

 

Operating Voltage: 22-29V

Consumption during firing: 4A

Power consumption during recharging: 1.5A at 24V

Power consumption of the electric lock during firing: 0.25A at 24V

 

MG131 is identical.

 

 

Thanks :)

 

 

As far as I can see the values in the lua file are in Watt.

 

 

That means:

 

 

ElecConsumerParamsGunFireSolenoid = {116, true, 15, 17} <--- 4A x 29v = 116W

ElecConsumerParamsMachineGunLoader = {8, true, 15, 17} <--- 0.25 x 29v = 7.25W

ElecConsumerParamsCannonLoader = {8, true, 15, 17} <--- 0.25 x 29v = 7.25W

Nevertheless..

The system is still porked, since the Guns/Cannons CB's should trip rather than the Gen/Bat CB's.

Also the landing gear CB is also too weak, but I have not been able to find any variables for that.

Though it's still considere early acces, I have sned a support ticke, just to be sure that the developers are notified.

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If you know the units, then you could change them according to the technical specification found on the internet (see below, I hope the translation is correct)

 

MG151/20:

 

Operating Voltage: 22-29V

Consumption during firing: 4A

Power consumption during recharging: 1.5A at 24V

Power consumption of the electric lock during firing: 0.25A at 24V

 

MG131 is identical.

 

In the technical manual I've got it's a little bit different:

Loading/charging the weapon; 0.8sec 8A-10A and 0.7sec 20-25A.

But same for firing: 4A

 

If I read that correctly, these values are per MG 151.

 

 

The values you posted are from the EDSK-B device, Part 3 in the MG151, MG151/20 Handbook

 

Fox

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I'm pretty sure that breakers that are in series are both popping at the same time. Like guns and battery. How is that even possible? The first one to break should eliminate the load through the other one.

 

And thanks for the fix but I'm guessing that means no online play?

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I'm pretty sure that breakers that are in series are both popping at the same time. Like guns and battery. How is that even possible? The first one to break should eliminate the load through the other one.

 

And thanks for the fix but I'm guessing that means no online play?

 

 

Exactly...

 

The Bat and Gen CB's are the rimary ones ones, while the 3 CB's for the guns and cannons are seconday and meant to trip before the Bat/Gen CB's if the guns/cannons overload or shortcu the electrical circuits.

Look in the manual page 32 for a schematic.

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I'm pretty sure that breakers that are in series are both popping at the same time. Like guns and battery. How is that even possible? The first one to break should eliminate the load through the other one.

 

And thanks for the fix but I'm guessing that means no online play?

 

So you definitely haven't seen any electrical systems, Sometimes CB will pop off in multi places at the same time, For example CB will pop off in your apartament for light circuit but at the same time CB for your apartament will pop off too and if you are good you probably can blow CB for whole residential block :)

But this will happen mostly when rapid short circuit happen.

Maby CB is poping out becouse guns take more amperage while heating up.

Did someone try turning off some load in fw and check is it still happening ? like pitot heater etc etc.


Edited by grafspee

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So you definitely haven't seen any electrical systems, Sometimes CB will pop off in multi places at the same time, For example CB will pop off in your apartament for light circuit but at the same time CB for your apartament will pop off too and if you are good you probably can blow CB for whole residential block :)

But this will happen mostly when rapid short circuit happen.

Maby CB is poping out becouse guns take more amperage while heating up.

Did someone try turning off some load in fw and check is it still happening ? like pitot heater etc etc.

 

Even back during WW2 electrical systems are not designed that way.

 

I´m an electrical engineer and electric circuitry are normally designed so that it is the CB that immediatly protects the component that trips i.e should the electrical solenoids for the cannons / guns either overload, or the wires between these solenoids and their respective CB' shortcut, then this CB should trigger. That means that one of 3 gun /cannon CB's should trip - not the Gen or Bat.

 

The Generator and Battery and their associated CB's would certainly be dimensioned to take the load of all consumers, or a bulletin be issued, that f.ex the Suit heater should be off when firing the guns/cannons - but I doubt this was the case.

 

I really don´t believe that the German FW engineers, and definitly not the Luftwaffe, would accept an electrical system as weak as what we see now in DCS, neither for firing the guns, or the landing gear.

 

The tripping of the Gen/Bat CB's happens regardless if I turn of Pitot heat, Suit heat, Nav lights and/or radios.

 

Raising the landing gear most probably draws alot more current than firing the guns, so the Gen/Bat CB's should also trip doing that, instead the seperate landing gear CB trip's - which as such would be correct, but not to the extend we are seeing here. It makes sense that it can happen when pulling excessive G's, but right now it happens most of the time, even flying level below 250 km/h.

 

 

I have never read any reports stating that Luftwaffe pilots had to play Piano on the CB's during combat, or when they where taking of.

The FW-190A was relative easy to fly, also for the novice pilots.


Edited by fjacobsen

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Even back during WW2 electrical systems are not designed that way.

 

I´m an electrical engineer and electric circuitry are normally designed so that it is the CB that immediatly protects the component that trips i.e should the electrical solenoids for the cannons / guns either overload, or the wires between these solenoids and their respective CB' shortcut, then this CB should trigger. That means that one of 3 gun /cannon CB's should trip - not the Gen or Bat.

 

The Generator and Battery and their associated CB's would certainly be dimensioned to take the load of all consumers, or a bulletin be issued, that f.ex the Suit heater should be off when firing the guns/cannons - but I doubt this was the case.

 

I really don´t believe that the German FW engineers, and definitly not the Luftwaffe, would accept an electrical system as weak as what we see now in DCS, neither for firing the guns, or the landing gear.

 

The tripping of the Gen/Bat CB's happens regardless if I turn of Pitot heat, Suit heat, Nav lights and/or radios.

 

Raising the landing gear most probably draws alot more current than firing the guns, so the Gen/Bat CB's should also trip doing that, instead the seperate landing gear CB trip's - which as such would be correct, but not to the extend we are seeing here. It makes sense that it can happen when pulling excessive G's, but right now it happens most of the time, even flying level below 250 km/h.

 

 

I have never read any reports stating that Luftwaffe pilots had to play Piano on the CB's during combat, or when they where taking of.

The FW-190A was relative easy to fly, also for the novice pilots.

 

I actualy never get cb pop during rising landing gear. Maby it is happening due to excesive g on airframe in initial climb cousing this to popup. Probably for safty of the electric engines running landing gear.

Take a look at FW190 D9 it has number of CBs cut to half comapre to Anton , i would gues that FW engieniers did some major upgrade here.


Edited by grafspee

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I actualy never get cb pop during rising landing gear. Maby it is happening due to excesive g on airframe in initial climb cousing this to popup. Probably for safty of the electric engines running landing gear.

Take a look at FW190 D9 it has number of CBs cut to half comapre to Anton , i would gues that FW engieniers did some major upgrade here.

 

As I wrote...

 

"...It makes sense that it can happen when pulling excessive G's, but right now it happens most of the time, even flying level below 250 km/h."

Regardless if the system on the FW-190D9 was upgraded or otherwise changed - an electrical system as weak as what we see now on the FW-190A8 would definitly not have been accepted.

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As I wrote...

 

"...It makes sense that it can happen when pulling excessive G's, but right now it happens most of the time, even flying level below 250 km/h."

Regardless if the system on the FW-190D9 was upgraded or otherwise changed - an electrical system as weak as what we see now on the FW-190A8 would definitly not have been accepted.

 

Agree with you about on this topic, But war time is war time sometimes some things are pushed in to service w/o proper fix an issue. If Anton had this kind of problems, which could happen during war, i can live with it.

Do ED made any statment about this issue, did they say "no bug" or did they say nothing so far?

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