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Red Flag Rumble - Mig21 vs F5


104th_Maverick

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;3065028']I hear ya guys, although there is nothing factually inaccurate about the documentary movie Top Gun ;), removing all missiles will end up in the Top Gun style engagements.

 

We will keep the short range missiles included for this round and look at doing guns only rounds at some point in the future.

 

We will also help you guys out with the model enlargement and turn that on for this event, after we do some testing with it we will let you know what option we go for as its not something we have used before.

 

More updates will follow in the coming week or so!

 

Good for this one Maverick, I have seen Cessna and F-5 with simple eye about 5 miles far perfectly, but in game is impossible to see the F-5 more than 800 meters away!

 

Test the more realistic model enlargement please!

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If we could limit to rear aspect only missiles, that could be really fun, too. With the radar missiles, MiGs have a major advantage. What's to stop them from just Salvo firing R3Rs and RTB all match? F5s will have trouble enough with the silks when engaging ground targets.

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If we could limit to rear aspect only missiles, that could be really fun, too. With the radar missiles, MiGs have a major advantage. What's to stop them from just Salvo firing R3Rs and RTB all match? F5s will have trouble enough with the silks when engaging ground targets.

 

I already did answered to you o nthat in FB page... You chose to not answer on my comment but instead repeat this one here, lets find out all pros and cons together..

 

Here is my FB answer:

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Its not like MiG-21 has BVR.. missile flies 2-7 seconds...

 

If go for guns only its way better to do MiG-15 vs Sabre no brainer...

 

Also when you telling

 

"As it stands, all the MiG-21s need to do is load up radar missiles, fire en masse, and then use their superior speed to run away from the close-in fight and RTB for refuel rearm. "

 

Try to disect this statement to pieces.. Basically you telling lets take MiG-21 advantages and put them in recycle bin :D And limit them to what they are not designed to do...

 

Also "load radar missiles and fire in MAss" is pure lol:

 

first of all effective range of R3R is even worse than R-60M sometimes its 3-5 km and MiG needs to keep a lock.

 

Also when MiG-21 has radar ON ALL F-5s instantly see where MiGs at, therefore ALL F-5s giving instant picture and SA which is far more better advantage than 3 km range radar missile. Plus MiG-21 Radar useless on altitudes below 2 KM and has no control over antenna elevation. WHile F-5 has already better SA from RWR and plus it has better radar which antenna elevation you can adjust and find migs before they will find you. All migs will see is just two ****ing DOTS on their RWR if they lucky...

 

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AKA LazzySeal

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I already did answered to you o nthat in FB page... You chose to not answer on my comment but instead repeat this one here, lets find out all pros and cons together..

 

Here is my FB answer:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its not like MiG-21 has BVR.. missile flies 2-7 seconds...

 

If go for guns only its way better to do MiG-15 vs Sabre no brainer...

 

Also when you telling

 

"As it stands, all the MiG-21s need to do is load up radar missiles, fire en masse, and then use their superior speed to run away from the close-in fight and RTB for refuel rearm. "

 

Try to disect this statement to pieces.. Basically you telling lets take MiG-21 advantages and put them in recycle bin :D And limit them to what they are not designed to do...

 

Also "load radar missiles and fire in MAss" is pure lol:

 

first of all effective range of R3R is even worse than R-60M sometimes its 3-5 km and MiG needs to keep a lock.

 

Also when MiG-21 has radar ON ALL F-5s instantly see where MiGs at, therefore ALL F-5s giving instant picture and SA which is far more better advantage than 3 km range radar missile. Plus MiG-21 Radar useless on altitudes below 2 KM and has no control over antenna elevation. WHile F-5 has already better SA from RWR and plus it has better radar which antenna elevation you can adjust and find migs before they will find you. All migs will see is just two ****ing DOTS on their RWR if they lucky...

 

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Sorry, I don't check Facebook often. Not trying to ignore you.

 

Unless 2.0 works differently, all MiGs need to do is roll over to see just about everything below them. Try it in 1.5, works well enough last time I checked. 5km out ranges the p5, and that's against a maneuvering target. It's more when head on. You don't need every missile to hit, but if 12 or so MiGs get a lock and fire near Rmax, chances are one or more will hit. SA in the F5 is good, but not great. I still don't get launch warnings signaling correctly. Then the MiGs just burn home to SAM safety and do it again.

 

Not saying it's easy to coordinate something like that, but you agree the radar missiles are an advantage, and I don't see the F5 having anything the MiG has once WVR, other than roll rate, while the MiG has climb and sustained turn advantage.

 

MiGs also have better a2g weapon plus the ccip feature (not supposed to have) as well as the proposed imposter settings essentially mitigating the F5 SA advantage.

 

These are all relatively minor advantages, though, so it's a close matchup, and ultimately pilot skill will matter way more than any of these factors, so I expect to get killed early on if I make the roster.


Edited by Dino Might
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I believe two heatseekers per plane gives easily the best balance. The planes are a close enough match in terms of maneuverability and weapons capability this way, and thus any neutral 1 v 1 dogfight is likely to drag on for a significant amount of time... enough for a third party to intervene with a kill shot from outside, thus ending the dogfight. :)

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I believe two heatseekers per plane gives easily the best balance. The planes are a close enough match in terms of maneuverability and weapons capability this way, and thus any neutral 1 v 1 dogfight is likely to drag on for a significant amount of time... enough for a third party to intervene with a kill shot from outside, thus ending the dogfight. :)

 

 

Would this be per flight or altogether?

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Sorry, I don't check Facebook often. Not trying to ignore you.

 

Unless 2.0 works differently, all MiGs need to do is roll over to see just about everything below them. Try it in 1.5, works well enough last time I checked. 5km out ranges the p5, and that's against a maneuvering target. It's more when head on. You don't need every missile to hit, but if 12 or so MiGs get a lock and fire near Rmax, chances are one or more will hit. SA in the F5 is good, but not great. I still don't get launch warnings signaling correctly. Then the MiGs just burn home to SAM safety and do it again.

 

Not saying it's easy to coordinate something like that, but you agree the radar missiles are an advantage, and I don't see the F5 having anything the MiG has once WVR, other than roll rate, while the MiG has climb and sustained turn advantage.

 

MiGs also have better a2g weapon plus the ccip feature (not supposed to have) as well as the proposed imposter settings essentially mitigating the F5 SA advantage.

 

These are all relatively minor advantages, though, so it's a close matchup, and ultimately pilot skill will matter way more than any of these factors, so I expect to get killed early on if I make the roster.

 

Buit that is what MIG-21 designed to do! It is interceptor, it should fly, attack and get back, F-5 was made as MiG-21 adversary with better maneuverability in mind.. You strip it from MiG-21 but you can't strip maneuverability from F-5..

 

Regarding roll over is not good tactic as you can stall your engine easily, you will have like couple seconds to see targets and even if you lock one, lock will be dropped as soon as you roll back in 90% of cases. Regarding R3R telling you from experience they are so shite you don't shoot them from R max, R max is 0 % hit as F-5 will see it on RWR anyway, in order to connect R3R you need to wait better range with red light indicator on radar and even then its not great, I shot two R3Rs in salvo once head on in F-5 from 4 Km he just did hard turn and evaded both missiles easily actually that all got me think that even if R3R is allowed then people would take mostly R-60M anyway.. Its just if F-5 knows that there will not be R3R for sure it is different knowledge advantage..

 

 

And since you told something about front aspect please look at the tacview I've attached, I killed MiG-21 from 5.6 KM front aspect with AIM-9P5.... How is R3R is threat for you i nF-5 when you see that???

F-5_front_aspect.zip

AKA LazzySeal

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Sorry why limit MIG-21 radar missiles... If you can not defeat them you need more practice. I thought this was red flag... Not red limit flag. I can defeat multiple AIM-120C with F-5 easily. Having no radar missile for MIG-21 brings them in huge disadvantage.

Maybe the pilots that complain about MIG-21 radar missile should play FC3 a bit more... Cause it seems they have no clue on how to defend in a full fidelity module. They say FC3 is easy mode. But it seems FC3 actually learns you how to survive and they are to dam busy to learn turning switches then actually fly and fight. And they still call FC3 easy mode haha. But FC3 actually makes all the rest easy mode. FC3 is very good in practicing these things and show you clearly what to do and what not to do.. Cause it seems the people asking for these limitations don't know how to yet.

If you can not interpret the RWR and warning tones in the F-5 it's your own fault.. Cause its kind of straight forward... When you get warning you defend right away. When you see a MIG-21 in outer ring you better start your maneuvering cause he will be very close really soon. 90% of people complaining and want limitations is because their own bad SA or the lack of knowledge about the capability's from the planes they fight against, and the lack of reacting properly to the threat.

 

I myself fly the F-5, and the MIG-21 radar missile is the least of my worries. 99% of the time if i get killed is because of the heat seekers and guns. So maybe a good idea to limit the guns and heat seekers on it as well.

 

Sorry for the rant... But i can not stand this limiting everything behavior. Unless it's totally necessary. You fight with what you have... and if you are not good at it maybe put some more time in it before joining a red flag tournament.


Edited by winchesterdelta1
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Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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Sorry why limit MIG-21 radar missiles... If you can not defeat them you need more practice. I thought this was red flag... Not red limit flag. I can defeat multiple AIM-120C with F-5 easily. Having no radar missile for MIG-21 brings them in huge disadvantage.

Maybe the pilots that complain about MIG-21 radar missile should play FC3 a bit more... Cause it seems they have no clue on how to defend in a full fidelity module. FC3 is very good in practicing these things and show you clearly what to do and what not to do.. Cause it seems the people asking for these limitations don't know how to yet.

If you can not interpret the RWR and warning tones in the F-5 it's your own fault.. Cause its kind of straight forward... When you get warning you defend right away. When you see a MIG-21 in outer ring you better start your maneuvering cause he will be very close really soon. 90% of people complaining and want limitations is because their own bad SA or the lack of knowledge about the capability's from the planes they fight against, and the lack of reacting properly to the threat.

 

I myself fly the F-5, and the MIG-21 radar missile is the least of my worries. 99% of the time if i get killed is because of the heat seekers and guns. So maybe a good idea to limit the guns and heat seekers on it as well.

 

Sorry for the rant... But i can not stand this limiting everything behavior. Unless it's totally necessary. You fight with what you have... and if you are not good at it maybe put some more time in it before joining a red flag tournament.

 

+1

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Buit that is what MIG-21 designed to do! It is interceptor, it should fly, attack and get back, F-5 was made as MiG-21 adversary with better maneuverability in mind.. You strip it from MiG-21 but you can't strip maneuverability from F-5..

 

Regarding roll over is not good tactic as you can stall your engine easily, you will have like couple seconds to see targets and even if you lock one, lock will be dropped as soon as you roll back in 90% of cases. Regarding R3R telling you from experience they are so shite you don't shoot them from R max, R max is 0 % hit as F-5 will see it on RWR anyway, in order to connect R3R you need to wait better range with red light indicator on radar and even then its not great, I shot two R3Rs in salvo once head on in F-5 from 4 Km he just did hard turn and evaded both missiles easily actually that all got me think that even if R3R is allowed then people would take mostly R-60M anyway.. Its just if F-5 knows that there will not be R3R for sure it is different knowledge advantage..

 

 

And since you told something about front aspect please look at the tacview I've attached, I killed MiG-21 from 5.6 KM front aspect with AIM-9P5.... How is R3R is threat for you i nF-5 when you see that???

 

I hear you, and I trust your experience in the MiG over mine - I haven't mastered it yet, so I don't disagree with any points you are making, except for the maneuverability argument. The F5 is not inherently more maneuverable than the MiG. It may win in instantaneous turn and low speed scissors, but that's it. The MiG can out-climb, out-accelerate, and hold a faster sustained turn. Again, I'm not trying to make this into some big thing - the performance is very close, just like the missile capabilities are very close (radar or not). Just quit pretending like the MiGs have nothing going for them, including 6 missiles per aircraft instead of 2. I think the MiGs have an advantage in a head to head when the aircraft know where each other are. The F-5s SA advantage is mitigated with imposters, but that's something that's going to be put in - I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with whatever adjustments they want to make for either side. I'd just be happy to fly in this thing. But I do think it's fair to talk about our ideas on the balance of such a scenario.

 

As stated, I am fine with no restrictions, and the better pilots will win, regardless of the ruleset, which is why any team that gets me will get a handicap. I'm cool with whatever, but I would prefer rear-aspect missiles and guns only, or just guns only. To me, it makes the fight more interesting, but for all of you complaining about realism, I guess mass F-5 vs MiG-21 battles in the desert with imposters is the height of realism. Okay...

 

And Mav, please put me on the F-5 team if I haven't outstayed my welcome. I'm not trying to start anything, just responding to your question earlier and continuing the convo with people who are so inclined. I'll shut up whenever.

 

Application:

 

Dino Might

F-5

Lone wolf

USA


Edited by Dino Might
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Sorry why limit MIG-21 radar missiles... If you can not defeat them you need more practice. I thought this was red flag... Not red limit flag.

 

 

Because its a BFM COMPETITION, read the damn event description before you go on some random rant next time!

 

And Mav, please put me on the F-5 team if I haven't outstayed my welcome.

 

You're more than welcome to attend mate, I will sign you up.

 

Guys this event was set up for people to have FUN... it's not designed for the Realism warriors to take it super seriously! There are no prizes, no awards and no rankings... this is purely about spreading our PvP events to other aircraft and having fun in the process.

 

We will consider adding the R-3R missile in as we do not want to be perceived as favouring one aircraft over another.... as I said, this event is about having fun, which is why it's important to us that it is as balanced as possible, and I'm sorry but with the F-5 only being able to carry two missiles I totally disagree that it's fine for us to allow the Mig21 to go up with eight!


Edited by [Maverick]

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

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Mav,

Please let me make clear that I really appreciate you guys hosting this, whatever ruleset/aircraft/map/server we use. These are awesome events, and it's a lot of work to organize these sorts of things. Please don't take any of our discussion as criticism of you or your crew. We'll bicker and banter a bit, but I hope that I speak for all of us when I say we are definitely excited for this, and we're glad you're putting it on.

 

The R3R is hardly a BVR missile, just saying :music_whistling:

Based on how the R27R and R27T have been acting lately, I wouldn't call them BVR missiles either :cry: (unless it stands for Brick Visual Range missile)


Edited by Dino Might
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