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Bf 109 K-4 vs Fw 190 D-9


Krupi

Bf 109 K-4 vs Fw 190 D-9  

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  1. 1. Bf 109 K-4 vs Fw 190 D-9

    • Bf 109 K-4
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    • Fw 190 D-9
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Just one more thing. P47 is not a ground attack plane but specialized high altitude fighter. Its best performance is around 8000m. Both 109K and190D are faster than the Spit we will have so K4 is still "better" in speed department at low altitude than the Spit :3.

 

Well that is certainly a way of looking at things that I have never considered :)

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Just one more thing. P47 is not a ground attack plane but specialized high altitude fighter. Its best performance is around 8000m. Both 109K and190D are faster than the Spit we will have so K4 is still "better" in speed department at low altitude than the Spit :3.

 

Well that is certainly a way of looking at things that I have never considered :)

 

I'm using the P-47 in its ground attack role, dont know about you...

 

If the 109 is down low with the 190 and Spit, who is intercepting the bombers? More to WWII than how 1 fighter matches up against another in 1 vs 1 combat... but now we are getting off topic... in the most basic aspect it will be 190 vs Spit and 109 vs P-51... if the scenarios are done right once we get our full WWII environment...

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I'm using the P-47 in its ground attack role, dont know about you...

 

If the 109 is down low with the 190 and Spit, who is intercepting the bombers? More to WWII than how 1 fighter matches up against another in 1 vs 1 combat... but now we are getting off topic... in the most basic aspect it will be 190 vs Spit and 109 vs P-51... if the scenarios are done right once we get our full WWII environment...

All German planes flew high alt too. Fw190A8 was going for bombers. Fw190D9 and Bf109s were going for the escorts most of the time. But some Bf109's were also going for bombers. Luftwaffe was using everything at every altitude. At Eastern front all planes were mostly flying low alt, as most Soviet attack aircraft were flying at alt below 3000m with fighter escorts at similar hight. 109s most of the time operated at low alt. Only since USAAF started the daylight bombings they started to fly high altitude to intercept them. Also Fw190 had many versions same as the 109. Some 109s were especially made for high alt like the G4 or G6/AS that were optimised for that alt, but most of 109s were G6 and they weren't actually optimised for high altitude.

 

Also Dora (Fw190D9) is usually called "the mustang killer" or at least is paired as the perfect enemy for the P-51D... thats why I was suprised you said that Spitfire was suppose to be its main oponent :P

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All German planes flew high alt too. Fw190A8 was going for bombers. Fw190D9 and Bf109s were going for the escorts most of the time. But some Bf109's were also going for bombers. Luftwaffe was using everything at every altitude. At Eastern front all planes were mostly flying low alt, as most Soviet attack aircraft were flying at alt below 3000m with fighter escorts at similar hight. 109s most of the time operated at low alt. Only since USAAF started the daylight bombings they started to fly high altitude to intercept them. Also Fw190 had many versions same as the 109. Some 109s were especially made for high alt like the G4 or G6/AS that were optimised for that alt, but most of 109s were G6 and they weren't actually optimised for high altitude.

 

Also Dora (Fw190D9) is usually called "the mustang killer" or at least is paired as the perfect enemy for the P-51D... thats why I was suprised you said that Spitfire was suppose to be its main oponent :P

 

You make your missions, I'll make mine, k, I never said one HAD to ONLY be down low or up high or one HAD to be ONLY against another, it was a generalization, war isnt balanced, and its not about 1v1, even though that appears to be many peoples mentality? Back on topic now, rather not sit here cherry picking quotes from the internet about aircraft we dont even have in the sim. WTF, so argumentative all the time with you guys...

 

If I am jumping in a server with both the 109 and 190, I am taking the 109 every time no matter what is on the other side...


Edited by NineLine

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I have to disagree with you there SiThSpAwN if we were talking about the A8 then yes however the Dora (like you said was used low for example to medium to cover Me262) really was good at height as well.

 

I have to be honest if I was leading the project I would scrap the Me 262 and replace it with Fw 190 A8 :P

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I have to disagree with you there SiThSpAwN if we were talking about the A8 then yes however the Dora (like you said was used low for example to medium to cover Me262) really was good at height as well.

 

I have to be honest if I was leading the project I would scrap the Me 262 and replace it with Fw 190 A8 :P

 

You did read what I said right.... come on guys...

 

The LF IX was put up with the 190 in mind, meant to play down low. Now I know that was earlier 190s, but we have what we have right now.

 

Not every WWII discussion has to turn into a competition of "I know more than you do"... ugh... I was talking in the context of DCS World...

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I have to disagree with you there SiThSpAwN if we were talking about the A8 then yes however the Dora (like you said was used low for example to medium to cover Me262) really was good at height as well.

 

I have to be honest if I was leading the project I would scrap the Me 262 and replace it with Fw 190 A8 :P

 

And I would be absolutely on board :D

 

+1 and change the K4 to 109G14 and that would be a perfect project :3

 

@Sith, I am not telling you what you "should" do. I am just saying that this is a way of thinking that never went through my mind. To me Dora was a reaction to the P-51D and it came so late in the war that it was present only for the Reich defense (and maybe for Op. Bondenplatte).

 

And P-47 was made as a high altitude fighter. That you think of it as a ground attack plane is well... underestimating the influence of the air war. Highest scoring pilot on Western front was Francis Gabreski and he flew with P-47s from early to D model. I am not telling you that because "I think you should" I am trying to show you what was its purpose during the real warfare of 1940s :)

 

I am sorry if that was seen as rude. Just wanted to point out that knowledge flow is a good thing on any forums.


Edited by Solty

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Also Dora (Fw190D9) is usually called "the mustang killer" or at least is paired as the perfect enemy for the P-51D... thats why I was suprised you said that Spitfire was suppose to be its main oponent :P

 

You normally see Dora vs Tempest as the ultimate match up... Man I would love a DCS Tempest :D

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Why not learn something from a discussion? You can check it yourself, this is standard knowledge of western front history. Not even going into heavy details like fuels used or ammo or exact times of travel and meetup points :P That last part is impossible for me to remeber :P.

 

Excuse me? Are you serious? I was talking in the context of DCS World (which what this forum happens to be about if you didnt know), please dont talk down to me like I dont know anything about WWII and history...

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To be fair Solty that was a bit on the nose! Are you aiming for a taste of the ban hammer! :D

 

Like Sith said let's get back to Kurfurst v Dora

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It's simple as hell... if the vehicle does strange things which are for no reason plausible take the one that you can control if you must only use your instinct.

K-4 isn't a vehicle you can drive alone with your muscle memory. This bitch does things you will never expect.

All seems to be "not enough" or "too much"! There is nothing inbetween this both stats!

There is not enough trim control and to much self turn behavior. There is not enough fine control with the stick or rudder but too much acting on rpm changes and so too much rolling and wing shacking.

You must me pay a lot so I would only think about to "ride" this bitch! :music_whistling:

 

So I will always take the D-9. She feels right even it's a hard time and if it comes to a fight you need a "friend" you know what she is doing. And even she is brave, she can be a beast if you give her all of what you have!

To "ride" her is pure fun! This is the right one.. you know what I mean? ;)

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I have to disagree with you there SiThSpAwN if we were talking about the A8 then yes however the Dora (like you said was used low for example to medium to cover Me262) really was good at height as well.
And I have to disagree with you mate, Dora was an attempt to enhance the high altitude performance... without achieving it... still high altitudes are the American battleground and you are mistaking the fact that this is a simulator and people don't usually combat where they historically did.

 

 

To me Dora was a reaction to the P-51D and it came so late in the war that it was present only for the Reich defense (and maybe for Op. Bondenplatte).
Have you take a look on the firsts units arrive date? It's sooner than you seems to think. It's too late because it was outnumbered, and still not so good in very high altitudes.

 

 

I don't think LF Spit will be a match in performance (specially speed) to the Dora, but in the low level fights we usually find in a simulator (it will happen, you know it will, it's happening indeed right now with the only servers available) the Dora and the Spit will be the "more natural" opponents, of course not to mention the 109. History is nice, but the simulators arenas reality are quite different mate and people look for what they look for and they had till the early simulators.

 

 

Of course it doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see some more variants like A8 and G14 :P.

 

S!

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Solty says:

To me Dora was a reaction to the P-51D and it came so late in the war that it was present only for the Reich defense (and maybe for Op. Bondenplatte).

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

Development of the Dora had to do with improving the high altitude performance of the FW-190 series, though.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

Development of the Dora had to do with improving the high altitude performance of the FW-190 series, though.

Sure it was... that would be the D12 and D13 that actually had significant advantages at high alt. D9 was though still optimised for low-medium altitude, but yes it had better high alt performance than the A serries.

 

Also why those improvments were needed? Due to P-51 and P47 outperforming Fw190A at high altitude.


Edited by Solty

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

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Great thread and poll! thumbup.gif

Thank you in advance for many posts i can read. ;)

For myself i have not yet decided but i belive it´s foreseeable that no one can win this "fight" for me.

I also have not the expirience till now and can only say something to my persopnal aesthetic and visual aspects:

Outside it´s the Me. In pit the FW.

 

And now what happens... BlaBlaBla :lol:

Thanks Nedum for the best comment in this column. His own view based on a experience in game it seems to me.

which does not mean that a real veteran can´t tell us his real life experiences from the past


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which does not mean...

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And I have to disagree with you mate, Dora was an attempt to enhance the high altitude performance... without achieving it...

 

Seriously... Seriously it definitely achieved it, sure it could have been better which is why the Ta152 was born however to say that the Dora was just an unsuccessful attempt is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read... I suggest you read about the Dora before you post something other than an uninformative opinion piece in the future.

 

Thanks

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Have you take a look on the Dora vs P-51 performance graphics? Sure Dora improved performance since A models, but mate as a high altitude fighter still she was a step behind compared to Americans (as much as I like her though). The idea behind Dora wasn't just "improve" A model but match or surpass American fighters. Was it achieved? :smilewink: As you said, that's Ta152 reason.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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The Dora was considered by Tank as an interim solution until the Ta-152 could be produced, and whilst the Dora did significantly improve the high alt performance over the Anton, it still didn't quite match the high alt performance of the premier american fighters.

 

Down low and at medium altitudes however the Dora was superior to the American fighters, but the bombers didn't fly at these altitudes so that was of little consolation to the German pilots whose primary mission after all was shooting down the bombers.

 

As mentioned however the Dora was never meant to match the high alt performance of the American fighters, but merely to alleviate some of the performance disparity the Anton suffered against American fighters at high altitudes. The Ta-152 on the other hand was not only meant to match the opposition, it was meant to dominate it. However once again it was too little too late.


Edited by Hummingbird
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It was a huge step in the right direction and could have played a large role against the daylight bombing raids had it been available earlier, to say that it did not achieve gains in altitude performance is what I disagree with especially when you compare it to the Antons.

 

Regarding the whole 'interim' solution talk I know another aircraft that was seen that way by its designers namely the Spitfire IX and that aircraft had a large impact.

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It was a huge step in the right direction and could have played a large role against the daylight bombing raids had it been available earlier, to say that it did not achieve gains in altitude performance is what I disagree with especially when you compare it to the Antons.

 

Regarding the whole 'interim' solution talk I know another aircraft that was seen that way by its designers namely the Spitfire IX and that aircraft had a large impact.

 

No doubt, and no disagreement on that from my end, but Tank knew it wasn't going to cut it up high in the west, he just simply had to fill the gap as best he could until he could get the Ta-152 ready.

 

It was really down low and at medium altitudes that it shined however, which it demonstrated with devastating effect on the Eastern front where Dora units were absolutely slaughtering their VVS opposition.

 

Up high on the western front however it was hard pressed, and no less because of the numbers disparity.

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At the full throttle altitude of the BMW801D, the Jumo213A produced 200 extra hp, roughly 1500@5500 compared to 1300@5300, combat/climb power. Or the Jumo213A still produced the 1300hp the BMW801D was capable of at 5300m at 6300m, basically gaining 1000m altitude performance.

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At the full throttle altitude of the BMW801D, the Jumo213A produced 200 extra hp, roughly 1500@5500 compared to 1300@5300, combat/climb power. Or the Jumo213A still produced the 1300hp the BMW801D was capable of at 5300m at 6300m, basically gaining 1000m altitude performance.

 

Add to that of course reduced weight and drag, plus a more effective prop which actually made the gain in thrust quite significant.

 

According to FW AG tests the thrust went from 1,836 kg with the A8 to 2,227 kg with the D9.

 

The performance over altitude also shows a rather significant leap as a result.

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Whatever, semantics :smilewink:. I didn't said Dora isn't an improve to Anton, I said still she doesn't match Americans and she doesn't. So, what's the discussion about?

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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I said still she doesn't match Americans and she doesn't. So, what's the discussion about?

 

Is this a fishing trip? It sounds like it.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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