We need a force feedback base badly...

As title says,

Even if it is going to cost near to the 4 digits :(

It is becoming more and more important for some serius virtual flight.

There is a high end one:

https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-joystick/

As title says,

Even if it is going to cost near to the 4 digits :(

It is becoming more and more important for some serius virtual flight.

That depends on the aircraft you're flying. I don't think there is much of a force feedback on modern fly-by-wire jets like the F-16 or F/A-18.

That depends on the aircraft you're flying. I don't think there is much of a force feedback on modern fly-by-wire jets like the F-16 or F/A-18.

There is indeed a need for it! Each aircraft feels different at the controls, F-18, F-14, Su-27 etc. Some sticks are harder to move some easier, some have stick shakers, get stiffer as you accelerate etc. I won't go back to non FFB however the brunner one doesn't use the default ffb in windows so it won't work with dcs. I'm still using a MSFFB2

There is indeed a need for it! Each aircraft feels different at the controls, F-18, F-14, Su-27 etc. Some sticks are harder to move some easier, some have stick shakers, get stiffer as you accelerate etc. I won't go back to non FFB however the brunner one doesn't use the default ffb in windows so it won't work with dcs. I'm still using a MSFFB2

Someone on reddit told me that it works in DCS now a few weeks ago. Don't have one myself and I can't find a definite answer in a Google search so I dunno how accurate that is.

Players feedback about Brunner FFB base in DCS: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220728

Many fly by wire systems like the FA-18 have force feedback for specific parameters. One such parameter for the FA-18 is a stick force gradient correlated to current g load. I just restarted development of an all in force feedback base that is programmable for all aircraft types.

Miles

Not to hijack this, but if I'm going to shell out the bucks (and I would) for a FFB base:

One thing I'd like to see in addition to this is the ability to hot swap sticks with and without extensions within DCS. Say I wanna fly the F18, plug in a F18 stick, want to switch to a mig21, swap in a mig stick etc. Without having to reboot anything. I'm currently using 3 different sticks and 2 different throttles, and debating another throttle and stick, and while I get good coverage of planes that way and in a way thats immersive its getting to be a bit much on the mapping and handling side.

Not to hijack this, but if I'm going to shell out the bucks (and I would) for a FFB base:

 

One thing I'd like to see in addition to this is the ability to hot swap sticks with and without extensions within DCS. Say I wanna fly the F18, plug in a F18 stick, want to switch to a mig21, swap in a mig stick etc. Without having to reboot anything. I'm currently using 3 different sticks and 2 different throttles, and debating another throttle and stick, and while I get good coverage of planes that way and in a way thats immersive its getting to be a bit much on the mapping and handling side.

Hey Harlikwin,

Hot swapping anything that uses shift registers like the Warthog should not be a problem. I am using a cortex micro-controller and I can have it recognized as several different HID joysticks. I am thinking on the fly here, but that should work for you in DCS because the joysticks would all show up when DCS boots, Just map to whichever joystick column you are using for a particular aircraft. After you screwed the new joystick on you would have to tell the cortex which stick you are using. Could just be any number of methods for that.

I am writing all of the design goals now, I spent a lot of time this weekend in the weeds with high hour rotary and fixed wing pilots getting all of the nuances down on how each system operates and feels.

Anything else you can think of now would be appreciated. I would like to run this project the way we did PointCTRL, with the community.

The priority now is electro-mechanical systems testing and selection that can meet the design requirements.

Miles

To piggyback on Harlikwin's post, being able to use at least a moderate (~12cm) extension would be a must for me.

The current design I am working with is a floor mounted unit with the pitch axis pivot 5.5 inches above the floor and the roll axis pivot 6.5 inches above the floor. Stick height would be infinity adjustable, like a bicycle seat. Stick length will probably be determined by seat height and good forearm to thigh contact.

Damn, so I guess you're putting some monster motors in there? Sounds very interesting already! Can't wait to see more.

No worky with DCS no getty my money. If I am going to spend 1-2K just to get force feedback, it is going to work 100% with my primary application: DCS. I own FSX, X-Plane, Prepar3d, etc. But I don't fly them often. So it needs to work with DCS World and keep up with both Windows 10 and DCS patches.

Additionally, DCS needs to support FFB correctly for it to be worth my money not a vibrator. I already have the Gametrix Jetseat Simulator Edition from Andre, which is awesome. A FFB stick needs to replicate the artificial feel more modern aircraft and the directly connected feel of older aircraft. Though just having force trim (apparently kind of working already) would be a great thing to have.

The current design I am working with is a floor mounted unit with the pitch axis pivot 5.5 inches above the floor and the roll axis pivot 6.5 inches above the floor. Stick height would be infinity adjustable, like a bicycle seat. Stick length will probably be determined by seat height and good forearm to thigh contact.

ive been sketching up a similar idea, but built from an MSFFB2 and using v-slot for the structure. (stuff 3d printers are made from now) Mine is more spitfire inspired so pitch is at the base, was thinking of maybe trying some gearing to increase the motor strength at the expense of speed for the pitch axis.

https://openbuildspartstore.com/c-beam-linear-rail/

(40x20 would nest inside for the length adjustment)

ive been sketching up a similar idea, but built from an MSFFB2 and using v-slot for the structure. (stuff 3d printers are made from now) Mine is more spitfire inspired so pitch is at the base, was thinking of maybe trying some gearing to increase the motor strength at the expense of speed for the pitch axis.

 

https://openbuildspartstore.com/c-beam-linear-rail/

(40x20 would nest inside for the length adjustment)

Thats a good start using the MSFFB2. The biggest challenges I found so far are, static friction when the load is extremely light around the controls center, cogging, and a hardware design that requires minimal PID loop tuning for the varied stick velocity and loads.

A hybrid system shows the most promise, consisting of a buffered drive system using industrial BLDC motors, and 3 sensors per axis. Sensors sample absolute stick position, BLDC motor cumulative position, and the delta of the the buffer system relative to each component. The last sensor should be able to be omitted by obtaining the delta between the encoder and the absolute stick position directly.

Sorry I rambled, If those challenges are met, DCS provides enough export data that should provide realistic control loading and effects for any aircraft type.

Price goal is sub $500.00 USD

Miles

$500? Yea that's a magic number right there. I'd be in for that.

Logitech G940 has FFB with a decent amount of Buttons. You should go for this if you find a rarely used one. It's < 200 $ and in IL2 and old AC in DCS it is really an improvement.

Best wishes MilesD for this interesting project.

Other actual offers, 1 not supporting fully DCS FFB effects and way over 1000€, and the other not available and also way over 1000€ but that is seemingly fully fonctionnal, are a true cold shower.

Hey Harlikwin,

 

Hot swapping anything that uses shift registers like the Warthog should not be a problem. I am using a cortex micro-controller and I can have it recognized as several different HID joysticks. I am thinking on the fly here, but that should work for you in DCS because the joysticks would all show up when DCS boots, Just map to whichever joystick column you are using for a particular aircraft. After you screwed the new joystick on you would have to tell the cortex which stick you are using. Could just be any number of methods for that.

 

I am writing all of the design goals now, I spent a lot of time this weekend in the weeds with high hour rotary and fixed wing pilots getting all of the nuances down on how each system operates and feels.

 

Anything else you can think of now would be appreciated. I would like to run this project the way we did PointCTRL, with the community.

 

The priority now is electro-mechanical systems testing and selection that can meet the design requirements.

 

Miles

Hi Miles,

I've never been brave enough to try to swap sticks with them plugged in and running, but if you say its ok I might try it sometime, though with the extensions/cables I use it still sucks to do.

So my suggestions:

#1 hot swapping, grips that use the same interface i.e. warthog/vipril not sure if VKB uses the same din interface (or maybe offer some sort of quick detach adapter plate/collar), I.e. add your stick to an adapter, then have that be a quick on/off? Probably raise the cost some but its something I'd pay for.

#1a Something better than the "janky" alum tube and cable extensions everyone is using, maybe have a variable length tube and nicely designed din connector interface at the top that would make screw-on/off with WH/Vipril sticks easy. About the only plane it wouldn't work great with is the viper, but thats a unique case I think.

#2 Also support for buttons/axes for them or something like that. I'm not sure how feasible this would be though. i.e. the Vipril CM50 stick has an extra axis mapped, while none of the TM sticks do. Maybe this could be a software solution.

I don't have an issue mapping 1 stick with different grips to multiple planes as long as this works easily in DCS.

My current setup is 2 WH bases/sticks and 1 vipril base/stick. One issue I have run into is I can't use the same "button 4" on the two WH sticks as a modifier button, they have to be unique, so I use button 3 on one and button 4 on the other as an example.

Hi Miles,

 

I've never been brave enough to try to swap sticks with them plugged in and running, but if you say its ok I might try it sometime, though with the extensions/cables I use it still sucks to do.

 

So my suggestions:

 

#1 hot swapping, grips that use the same interface i.e. warthog/vipril not sure if VKB uses the same din interface (or maybe offer some sort of quick detach adapter plate/collar), I.e. add your stick to an adapter, then have that be a quick on/off? Probably raise the cost some but its something I'd pay for.

 

#1a Something better than the "janky" alum tube and cable extensions everyone is using, maybe have a variable length tube and nicely designed din connector interface at the top that would make screw-on/off with WH/Vipril sticks easy. About the only plane it wouldn't work great with is the viper, but thats a unique case I think.

 

#2 Also support for buttons/axes for them or something like that. I'm not sure how feasible this would be though. i.e. the Vipril CM50 stick has an extra axis mapped, while none of the TM sticks do. Maybe this could be a software solution.

 

 

I don't have an issue mapping 1 stick with different grips to multiple planes as long as this works easily in DCS.

 

My current setup is 2 WH bases/sticks and 1 vipril base/stick. One issue I have run into is I can't use the same "button 4" on the two WH sticks as a modifier button, they have to be unique, so I use button 3 on one and button 4 on the other as an example.

Hey Harlikwin,

Let me do some measurements and do a few monitored test on the hot swap before you try it. I would hate myself if you had an issue. I'lll be the test dummy on my equipment.

For the connection I was thinking a wireless 2.4 ghz connection for the data and a magnetic cell phone style connector for power. The wireless connection can add some interesting options for other peripherals and allow automatic stick model recognition.

Edit: The flight axis would be hard wired, only the stick buttons would be wireless.

I haven't got into the other sticks, but its all really rather simple to map, unless someone is using some sort of proprietary coms.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I've done it on my Warthog interface modded FFB2, All that happens is every button reads as being clicked with every Clock Pulse of the shift register. So don't do it in the plane or things will get fun.

Since it's just a shift register nothing gets lost or un-allocated it just sees a low circuit every pulse until a new stick is plugged in.

... About the only plane it wouldn't work great with is the viper, but thats a unique case I think...

I take the exemple of the "other" falcon sim, and the way it worked (I've not touched it since long time) regarding FFB was great.

I remember you could feel the drop of a big LGB in the stick, and then immediately opposite wing heavy that required trimming. + feel of speed on elevators and stall buffeting vibs. Unrealistic but very enjoyable.

So I'd say FFB with Viper in DCS would be unrealistic for sure, but can work great like in the above exemple.

At it again, huh Miles? This will truly be an awesome addition to any simpit when it comes to fruition.

Currently, I'm using a Brunner CLS-E, which has buggy DCS support with regards to native FFB, but the hardware functionality makes it worth it.

I would suggest doing something similar, where a gui allows you to setup parameters for standard trim functions, regardless of what sim you are playing.

For example, with the Brunner, I can setup a force trim release button, and 4-way force trim hat within the Brunner software, and then use that profile for any aircraft within DCS, or any sim for that matter. I have a helo profile, and a fixed wing profile.

The integration you're talking about, with a different set of effects for each aircraft, would be even better, for sure.

At it again, huh Miles? This will truly be an awesome addition to any simpit when it comes to fruition.

 

Currently, I'm using a Brunner CLS-E, which has buggy DCS support with regards to native FFB, but the hardware functionality makes it worth it.

 

I would suggest doing something similar, where a gui allows you to setup parameters for standard trim functions, regardless of what sim you are playing.

 

For example, with the Brunner, I can setup a force trim release button, and 4-way force trim hat within the Brunner software, and then use that profile for any aircraft within DCS, or any sim for that matter. I have a helo profile, and a fixed wing profile.

 

The integration you're talking about, with a different set of effects for each aircraft, would be even better, for sure.

Whats up HeloGuy!!!

Your spot on with the design goals. A realistic force trim implementation is a critical design goal. I see a few minor issues with modeling the trim actuators and parallel servos outside of the sim, but I really don't see any other way to do it. I assume you only use the simulation trim to administratively set the trim to zero, and then all trimming is done electro-mechanically with the stick.

When I am a bit more freed up from PointCTRL we should get up on discord voice, or phone. Given your "Night" job, I would love some more input. My helo advisers are mostly UH1 and S76 . We are getting together in January for 3 days, so I hope to have some working prototypes to test, adjust, and verify different control loading and effects. An air-frame dependent ETL vibration is a big one for me.

Thanks for the input, and I hope to talk to you soon.

Miles

I've done it on my Warthog interface modded FFB2, All that happens is every button reads as being clicked with every Clock Pulse of the shift register. So don't do it in the plane or things will get fun.

 

Since it's just a shift register nothing gets lost or un-allocated it just sees a low circuit every pulse until a new stick is plugged in.

Thanks for that RustBelt, Are you using alternative dc motors with your FFB2/Warthog or the stock ones?

Miles