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Old 02-15-2017, 06:38 AM   #11
Zimmerdylan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbuck View Post
To start, let me point out I am a starter who likes the concept of a WWII craft and am intrigued with the Mustang P51. About 3 years ago I was scanning games on Steam and saw DCS and a number of A/C one could simulate flying and was intrigued. I have some history with MS Flight simulation products and a few others but never was satisfied with their "combat" scenarios. I always thought the Arcade environment was a bit too easy. However, configuring many of them for simulation mode made for a more interesting experience. Thus, I expected to be challenged with DCS.

I have been in an our to Steam for the past couple of years toying with DCS World and finally decided to go straight to DCS for play time now that I have retired.

I am going to attempt a log of sorts with edits as time goes forward to chronicle my experiences. This is the initial entry and am now being paged so will be back with further edits shortly.

Additional info/update - 02/14/2017 @ 1742 hrs DST US East coast:
-----------------------------------------------------------

In a nutshell, I am still frustrated after 15 - 20 hours of actual Mustang flying time with the super-sensitive flight controls even with Saitek x52 Pro Flight system (I expect Thrustmaster Warthot Hotas users might point out that is one oif my problems) which I have researched, reprogrammed and tweaked multiple hours for each flight time hour. I've managed to reach a level of almost-satisfaction with level flight, ascending/descending, banking, etc at various speeds successfully. However, in takeoff/landing runs, I have about 70 crashes to 40 landings. Rarely is either smooth when successful. I still go back to tutorials for additional guidance but find my controls are generally less smooth than desired. Generally, the issue is drifting or bobbling about at approach speeds for landing and craft wild drifting/pitching over during takeoff.

I have modified missions to concentrate on Kobuleti landing pattern/landing in addition to takeoff from various airfields. Each of these have much prep adjusting axis curves and control magnitudes to gain smoother/fine control as well as adequate control magnitude. As I continue this log/journal I intend to embed (if possible) values and graphics of these efforts.

My system:

Eluktronics P670RP6 Gaming Laptop - Intel Core i7-6700HQ Quad Core, W10 Home, 6GB GDDR5 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060, 17.3” Full HD IPS, 256GB Performance SSD + 1TB HDD, 16GB DDR4 RAM

I have yet to experiment with overclocking nor checked frame rate. I have a generally smooth display at max resolution of 1980/1080. However, an irritating momentary sound/video freeze (stutter?) bothers me but doesn't seem to otherwise impact game play.

My current goals:

1. Achieve 10 sequential takeoff/landings in each of P51-D and TF51-D in ideal conditions as a minimum in full simulation

then

2. Repeat with varying weather, climate, and visibility conditions

After that get into combat scenarios.

Questions:

1. What are ideal control settings

2. Using SAitek X52 Pro, what is a convenient and workable control profile

If readers of this post has suggestions regarding anything I've mentioned I would appreciate your input. Certainly if you have any to offer with regard to the questions I would be very grateful.
Your best bet for answers, and real time learning with other people there with you is to get TeamSpeak, go on to server on line. Aerobatics Online is a great place to start. There, you can talk to others who are flying along with you who can watch what you are doing and teach you while they are talking to you. I have tutored many P-51, ME 109, and 190 fliers with very little problems. Some of them as young as 13 and as old as 70. There are always great people who know what you are going through and are more than happy to help you get started on whatever issues that you may have.

It's not as daunting as it seems, a little guidance, some tutorial videos, and your off. If you are ever on line, look me up in TS (Tuco). I'll get you off the ground and show you how to get there consistently, and land too. But there are many well qualified fliers who would be more than willing to help you.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:41 AM   #12
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Also, keep in mind that "ideal control settings" are very subjective. Even though some people have strong opinion on using fully linear response in their standard, unmodded sticks, I personally could not imagine flying DCS warbirds without at least 20-25% pitch&roll curves on my Warthog (in my opinion, going linear with a gaming stick, which is 3-4 times shorter than the real thing doesn't really make experience more "realistic" by any means). I went fully linear only two weeks ago, after I added 30 cm extension.

X-52's centering spring is a marshmallow compared to TH Warthog, so You migh get away with smaller curvature settings, but still...
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:07 PM   #13
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Thanks David OC for all the hints/cautions/suggestions. I will be kept busy for awhile just going through the pointers! Regarding taildraggers, I have toyed with others including some of the WWI and have to admit finding them VERY different than tricycle landers. I am committed to devoting my play time nailing the Mustang and do appreciate your inputs along with the many others.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art-J View Post
Also, keep in mind that "ideal control settings" are very subjective. Even though some people have strong opinion on using fully linear response in their standard, unmodded sticks, I personally could not imagine flying DCS warbirds without at least 20-25% pitch&roll curves on my Warthog (in my opinion, going linear with a gaming stick, which is 3-4 times shorter than the real thing doesn't really make experience more "realistic" by any means). I went fully linear only two weeks ago, after I added 30 cm extension.

X-52's centering spring is a marshmallow compared to TH Warthog, so You migh get away with smaller curvature settings, but still...
Thanks Art-J. Someone else mentioned extensions. Will have to look into it. At first glance, I can't see any way of adjusting the X52 Pro joystick other than a lock to avoid using it for rudder twist - I assume for pedals which I don't have.....

I'm going to try to post my AXIS curves soon but in short I have been all over the map getting to where I am currently at - and expect to continue tweaking a bit.

I
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbuck View Post
Thanks David OC for all the hints/cautions/suggestions. I will be kept busy for awhile just going through the pointers! Regarding taildraggers, I have toyed with others including some of the WWI and have to admit finding them VERY different than tricycle landers. I am committed to devoting my play time nailing the Mustang and do appreciate your inputs along with the many others.
I would highly recommend getting some rudder pedals, especially for the taildragger aircraft, you have much more control of the rudder and you will have 2 more independent foot axis for the left and right brakes, this is important at low speeds when taking off and landing as you will need to apply some left or right brake when the rudder has little to no affect. (See the video I posted on the first page to see just how much footwork is required)

Here is a video of me playing around showing some Ground Footwork Practice in an external view with the Spitfire, braking works a little different on the spitfire. To engage either of the individual wheel brakes for turning on the ground, the rudder pedal is first depressed in the direction of the desired turn and then the (brake lever) is pulled until the brake engages. The brake lever is attached to the control stick.



I use the saitek combat rudder pedals which are just ok pedals, will be getting the MFG Crosswind at some point, don't tell the misses tho lol. Would also like to upgrade my CH Fighterstick at some point, trying to decide which way to go, it needs to be adjustable but also cater to Planes and helicopters. The VKB-Sim Gunfighter Series looks great. Probably go with the warthog stick only with different extension mods as I need the buttons and hats on the stick.

These are main items that had a big wow factor in my simming over the years.

Track IR – Head tracking to move the view around, this takes a little to get used to, now I couldn’t live without it.


https://youtu.be/_AO0F5sLdVM

Upgrading from the tm 16000m single stick to CH gear joystick, throttle and saitek rudder pedals.

We do lack some feedback (movement) based on the feeling we have in real world. We can get better with practise using visual cues, VR helps here by putting you in the plane completely; it’s not perfect yet and takes everything your PC can throw at it to have a decent experience, not really practical now in missions to pick out targets, unless you use the labels etc.

Flying around, landing, taking off is a game changer in VR for the 3D feedback it brings, cannot wait when VR is a few generations older. Another thing with VR you do need to map all the controls as you cannot see the keyboard easily. VR is like the matrix, Unfortunately, no one can be…told what VR is. You have to see it for yourself. I’m building up a new i7 7700K water cooled system for VR.

Last edited by David OC; 02-16-2017 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:56 PM   #16
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I used an X52 pro, and still find it useful for more delicate operations (Flying the Huey) where tiny inputs are needed. The Warthog is great for a workout on Jets, but I think it's a tiny bit too well sprung without an extension, for WWII Fighters.

Agreed, the X52 is a bit floppy, but you can beef up the feel of it without taking it apart, just by compressing the top of the spring where it meets the handle. I just have a thick bootlace wound round it a few times, and trapped by the tension of the spring. It makes it much stiffer, but can be removed in a thrice.

I agree with the others that for taildraggers especially, that rudder pedals are important. I can't vouch for the expensive ones, since I just have cheap CH Pros, and they work fine.
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Old 02-18-2017, 02:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkiii View Post
I used an X52 pro, and still find it useful for more delicate operations (Flying the Huey) where tiny inputs are needed. The Warthog is great for a workout on Jets, but I think it's a tiny bit too well sprung without an extension, for WWII Fighters.

Agreed, the X52 is a bit floppy, but you can beef up the feel of it without taking it apart, just by compressing the top of the spring where it meets the handle. I just have a thick bootlace wound round it a few times, and trapped by the tension of the spring. It makes it much stiffer, but can be removed in a thrice.

I agree with the others that for taildraggers especially, that rudder pedals are important. I can't vouch for the expensive ones, since I just have cheap CH Pros, and they work fine.
Thanks for the input. I'm going to give the "bootlace" trick a try to see what it buys me. An issue that I need a work around with is a "sticky" joystick. Especially those tiny corrections I seem to need during final approach. Seems to have a tiny bit of hangup just before moving. Will have to deal with that for now but I am looking at pedals as a first item and am also looking seriously into the trackir unit.

I may regret a decision during my recent downsizing (accompanying retirement) where I gave up a home built desktop to my gaming grandson. This Eluctronic Gaming Laptop has a nice size (17+ inch screen) and fairly good specs - described in OP - and capable of physically handling pedals and trackir, I think. However, I'm finding thoughts entering my mind to build a strictly gaming desktop and keep this for usual administrative stuff. However, that will have to get past the War Department (read: spouse).
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Old 02-18-2017, 03:49 AM   #18
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Default My controller Axis curves

As mentioned earlier, I have spent hours tweaking my controller to the point where I have limited success and would post those curves. Not having a lot of experience with that this is somewhat of an experiment.

Here are the curves for the Saitek X52 Pro HOTAS:

Click image for larger version

Name:	X-Axis.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	49.8 KB
ID:	157461 : x Axis

Click image for larger version

Name:	Y-Axis.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	47.5 KB
ID:	157462 : Y- Axis

Click image for larger version

Name:	Rudder.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	46.5 KB
ID:	157463 : Rudder Axis

Click image for larger version

Name:	RPM Slider.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	59.8 KB
ID:	157464 : RPM Axis

Click image for larger version

Name:	Elevator Trim.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	60.5 KB
ID:	157465 : Elevator Trim Axis

Click image for larger version

Name:	Rudder Trim.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	55.3 KB
ID:	157466 : Rudder Trim Axis

Click image for larger version

Name:	Throttle.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	64.6 KB
ID:	157467 : Throttle Axis

Undoubtedly, I will continue to tweak these going forward.

This is the Saitek profile in zip format:

Mustang 000.zip -

Now, hopefully that went all according to Hoyle....

If/when you unzip the Saitek profile, load it into SST programming utility, and scan the contents you will see most of the axis are intact. Exceptions are the Slider1 (RPM) and Mode 3, X-AXIS. The former should be easy to understand but both are banded with bindings to Key presses in DCS P51-D. For now it works for me but I will likely change that at some point.

If anyone chooses to adopt any of these and has questions feel free to ask.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit update 3/9/17

Since posting this I've continued to tweak stick and throttle axis and gotten a pair of TM rudder pedals. Needless to say, tweaking continues and some progress made in improving controls in general and marginal success in takeoff/landings. Still find controls touchy as hell in trying to center the ball for leveling our to make a good approach. Lubed the stick but still bobble too much even with feather touches and end up in flames too much. Spending any free time doing all that stuff. Also spend a lot of time watching videos and gathering tips. Thanks to all for many tips and pointers to tips/videos/articles. One day I hope to look back on all this frustration with a smile cuz it's OVER but I'm gonna get there.......

Last edited by sawbuck; 03-10-2017 at 12:20 AM. Reason: just a not....
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimmerdylan View Post
Your best bet for answers, and real time learning with other people there with you is to get TeamSpeak, go on to server on line. Aerobatics Online is a great place to start. There, you can talk to others who are flying along with you who can watch what you are doing and teach you while they are talking to you. I have tutored many P-51, ME 109, and 190 fliers with very little problems. Some of them as young as 13 and as old as 70. There are always great people who know what you are going through and are more than happy to help you get started on whatever issues that you may have.

It's not as daunting as it seems, a little guidance, some tutorial videos, and your off. If you are ever on line, look me up in TS (Tuco). I'll get you off the ground and show you how to get there consistently, and land too. But there are many well qualified fliers who would be more than willing to help you.
Zimm, thanks for suggestion. I took a quick look at TeamSpeak. In the not too distant future it will be checked off my "get it" list. Right now I am prioritizing with practicing/tweaking controls with what I have. However, from responses to my post and watching several vids I've gotta have Trackir and rudder pedals! Those are my next priorities. Would like to find some way of extending my X52 Pro Joystick for finer control but.....
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Old 02-19-2017, 11:24 AM   #20
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Don't let the sim bug bite too much Sawbuck, you'll get in trouble with the misses...

3 screens 55" NECs Checkout the video on you tube for more info.




Inexpensive DIY curved screen made with an old trampoline
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