Something about u22a pod work method

Anyone know how this pod works in dcs? Does it simply make a lot of noise, or use some complex methods to break the radar lock? Does it suppress the sam firing range?

What I found is that accroding to the rwr, it seems that the pod somehow break the lock, because when I get a lock rwr tone, it lasts for several seconds and disappears. After several seconds I get locked again and the situation repeats until I get close enough that the pod cannot break the radar.

But the problem is that it doesnt have the breaking lock effect, the sam are all semi active guidance so when the lock is broken, the missile already fired should not hit its target. But the missile hits me as well.

It does reduce firing range of SAMs.

But the problem is that it doesnt have the breaking lock effect, the sam are all semi active guidance so when the lock is broken, the missile already fired should not hit its target. But the missile hits me as well.

It does reduce firing range of SAMs.

Is that not because you're maneuvering and getting in the RWR blindspots? The Viggen has a few. As QuiGon stated, ECM in DCS usually just lowers acquire and thus launch range of SAMs.

There is no real EW simulation in the DCS engine currently. There is nothing like noise jamming or other complex methods of jamming, therefore all ECM does, is to reduce launch range and deny IFF above a certain range in multiplayer.

Nope, I didnt maneuver when I tested this ecm pod

That's pretty sad. Do you think ed will cover this section when they complete the f18c? I've heared some decoys is on the way.

Nope, I didnt maneuver when I tested this ecm pod

But you were flying, iirc the nose has a small blindspot for the RWR, could be that just flying straight already took you through a few blindspots, to account for the lost-lock idea, since as you said, SARH doesn't reaquire, same for DCS, unless you were fired on by SAMs with their own seeker head, but they are very rare and I'm not taking you for one to fail to notice the difference.

On the point of improving ECM simulation, there have been a lot of threads requesting this, but know that ECM is one of the most closely kept secrets of every plane that has been 'declassified' and the simulation itself is incredibly complex. I wouldn't count on (dare I say ever?) seeing it getting an improvement in DCS.

Decoys is another matter, yes the F/A-18C will get the TALD decoy glider, and GEN-X decoys. Not sure how they will implement this, but I think the BK-90 from the viggen is viewed as 'another plane' or thereabouts behind the scenes. Which is exactly what the TALD is trying to mimic, maybe they're going for that course, time will tell.

I was flying a flanker against FA-18 yesterday and I could see them at long range on my radar so I locked them up to see their position through the HUD. The lock was immediately broken and the contact on my radar looked like it turned on ECM with multiple fasle range markers. A moment later the ECM turned off and it was just a single contact again.

I took that to be the Hornet EW system flashing ECM just long enough to break the lock and then turning it off again...

Maybe the FA18 has opened up this ability for all the planes in DCS.

I also noticed the Mirage has vapour over wings now at high AOA because this effect was introduced for the Hornet...

Decoys is another matter, yes the F/A-18C will get the TALD decoy glider, and GEN-X decoys. Not sure how they will implement this, but I think the BK-90 from the viggen is viewed as 'another plane' or thereabouts behind the scenes. Which is exactly what the TALD is trying to mimic, maybe they're going for that course, time will tell.

Beeing "another plane" is only a workaround for the BK90. This was beeing done, because there was no template for such a weapon available in the DCS engine. ED recently added such a weapon template and Heatblur is working on a new BK90 implementation based on that: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=206391

As the Hornet is made by ED themselves they will make sure all the weapon types carried by the Hornet will have the required ground work in DCS itself.

A question - in manual it says that the pod is not omnidirectional, but rather emits in a cone.

Is this modeled?

And if that's the case, is the cone itself steerable or fixed (i.e. can the pod jam only directly forward or also off boresight?)

Or is it just ECM ON => reduce lock range and that's it?

The cone for U22 and U22/A is modeled. It’s also modeled to have additional chance to break missile guidance radars (CW).

Is that not because you're maneuvering and getting in the RWR blindspots? The Viggen has a few. As QuiGon stated, ECM in DCS usually just lowers acquire and thus launch range of SAMs.

In reality a Soviet SAM like SA-6 can launch without lock, and they don't need to care at all about ECM as the missile is guided at your jamming or just to your direction simply by doing launch without radar emissions turned On. At wanted moment the radar emissions can be flipped back On and use radar to acquire lock on you so the radar seeker can find the emission better and guide accurately at you. Timing is critical and hope that target doesn't change the course too much so missile will catch the emission and have enough capabilities to maneuver at target.

The ECM simply lovers the max launch range when alone as the distance can't be calculated so missile is flying straight at you.

But with multiple launchers, they can triangulate your range (or get that information other means) and estimate the max launch range.

The radar lock is not required at any situation, only required thing is to get the missile near you so its proximity or impact fuze triggers its explosion, unless the missile is detonated by a command.

Now the question is how to get that missile close enough at the target. A maneuvers are still one of the best options as point of intercept is changing continually and that means more drag and energy used in limited missile so max launch range drops. The best is to stay behind terrain so you can't be seen by any means by anyone from any direction.

The ECM becomes important in the missile terminal phase to lose the lock. The guidance radar can multiple times lock on you and each time that happens the missile changes its terminal phase heading at you, until no energy or it has missed already. A split second time to lose a lock and do a maneuver saves your life as missile is going to miss, but flying straight will likely lead to destruction as missile is flying to last known intercept point.

The SARH missiles are not stupid. They do not require lock from start to impact, only at the terminal phase to get accurate intercept point to be very near the target. The lock can be lost multiple times and it doesn't make the missile "dumb" or ballistic or "deaf". At some point missile just miss the intercept point or capability to turn there depending how long the game is played about getting guidance get near a moving target.

What the pod should do is to stay silent, listen when it is scanned and when it is locked. Then it does it "magic" and starts to send false emissions back to radar that doesn't anymore see target where it was supposed to be and then stop emission and let the radar find again. This way waste critical seconds in guidance to get missile close enough.

It doesn't matter does the radar get lock on you once you just alter course each time the lock has been lost. If you fly straight then it doesn't matter if lock is lost as missile is still coming at your intercept point if it was managed to be calculated, or then straight at your jammer each time it is on.

....

I know how it works in reality, but we're talking DCS here. Missiles usually just go dumb after losing lock once.

I know how it works in reality, but we're talking DCS here. Missiles usually just go dumb after losing lock once.

That should be about time to change if ED manages to rewrite the whole radar/missile guidance logics to even semi-realistic ones.

As we are going to see far less BVR shots, far more dangerous SAM performances, and far more challenging environments for fighter pilots to operate in Anti-Air situations and requirement to get their gun skills tuned.

The cone for U22 and U22/A is modeled. It’s also modeled to have additional chance to break missile guidance radars (CW).

That's perfect. And is it steerable or just forward facing? For example, if the radar emissions are coming from 5 o'clock, will the pod jam it?

That's perfect. And is it steerable or just forward facing? For example, if the radar emissions are coming from 5 o'clock, will the pod jam it?

Just forward facing. I quote the manual:

The U22 pods are directional in their emission envelopes, the pod can emit in a cone of ± 60°

gyro stabilised horizontally and about ± 45° vertically.

I just did a few tests with the U22 pod. In the automatic mode this pod is supposed to be a deceptive jammer. That is, instead of transmitting noise it transmits a signal designed to make the radar believe the target is in a different place. This will guide the tracking radar away from the target, resulting in a break lock. It does not reduce the initial lock-on range (for that you need a noise jammer).

The good news is that it indeed works this way. My findings are:

* Initial lock range is the same with or without the ECM pod turned on. This is as expected.

* The lock breaks several times (i.e. a for a few seconds the RWR stops beeping at a fast rate). This is all at about 20 nm from a SA-6 site with a straight inbound Viggen, so the radar is well within the RWR reception cone.

* After a few lock breaks, the locks becomes steady and the SAM site is capable of firing a missile.

* Ultimately the range at which a missile is launched at the Viggen (flying at 2 km msl) is reduced by about 8 km.

* If you fly lower (500 m) the initial lock range is reduced to about 14 nm. Apparently the model works in such a way that at close range the victim radar is no longer deceived. So for this altitude I find no difference between ECM on or off.

Can anyone provide more details about the underlying model for radar/ECM? For example what is the normal change of the tracking radar breaking a lock, and to what probability is this enhanced when the U22 is active?

* The lock breaks several times (i.e. a for a few seconds the RWR stops beeping at a fast rate). This is all at about 20 nm from a SA-6 site with a straight inbound Viggen, so the radar is well within the RWR reception cone.

* Ultimately the range at which a missile is launched at the Viggen (flying at 2 km msl) is reduced by about 8 km.

 

Same as what I found, but I think the firing machinism is a little bit different. The enemy sam can sometimes fire the missile before they aquire a steady lock, and the problem is here: the semi-active radar missile cannot guide to the target once it lost the target, but in dcs, the missile can still hit you when the radar lost the lock.

Another thing: sometimes the rwr never gives you a warning! you just suddenly blows up! That happens when I face 052c. Russian Bias!

Another thing: sometimes the rwr never gives you a warning! you just suddenly blows up! That happens when I face 052c. Russian Bias!

I have seen the same, no RWR at all, but still an ominous looking exhaust plume ...

Might be coincidence, but I only had this with SA-6 units without a search radar.