AIM-54 Effect on MP (now that we can test it in the sim)

I'd like to start a continuation of this discussion without necroing the original thread since it's 11 months old. (original is here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=181407)

How do you think the AIM-54 will affect PVP servers? Now that the missile is in the game, we don't have to speculate over whether it can hit a fighter maneuvering hard (it can).

I've flown some F-15 vs. F-14 on "Excellent" difficulty AI starting at 60nm BVR at 30,000 ft. This is an even, head-on joust with no hiding in terrain and no unpredictability or creativity from players so as to remain as repeatable as possible. Basically I used AI to eliminate x-factor in order to test the range advantage of the AIM-54 in isolation.

In my testing, I found that I must to dodge 2 AIM-54s before I am able to close enough distance for a medium PK AIM-120C shot. Any shots I take before defeating 2 AIM-54s are at about Raero.

Also, if I try to crank and only defend when missiles are detected, my odds of survival are quite low. I am able to win the engagement by not waiting for a missile spike and going straight to beaming, turning in only temporarily to fire low PK AIM-120Cs and going defensive immediately without trying for higher PK shots or giving mid-course corrections. My conclusion after the testing is that the AIM-54C gives quite a significant advantage in open airspace, and superior tactics must be used to mitigate this advantage (tactics that both sides can equally exploit).

What do you think? Have you tested them, or have you formed an opinion on theory alone?

the aim54 we have in game is the same aim54 we've had since forever so there is nothing new to talk about yet

REDFOR fanboys will be crying all over the forums when I'm done with them..

I'll just turn on my AWG-9 and they'll start burning energy turning. I'll wait till about 30 miles to make my first shot, just as they're about to setup their first launch. At that point they'll assume that

1. I dont see them (i will)

2. That now is the time to commit

At 30 miles my AIM-54 will run them into the dirt.

The things I imagine happening;

- No mater how the missile behaves, group A will complain that it is not realistic, Group B will complain that it is.

On another note:

I always find missile/weapon conversation amusing in the net. When I was in the USAF, with clearance, I had no access to any information regarding true missile performance, PK etc. So I think is amazing how many people know so much about missiles true performance from things they read on the net. Oh well.

the aim54 we have in game is the same aim54 we've had since forever so there is nothing new to talk about yet

Oh... do we have a placeholder right now that is not properly modeled? I thought heatblur had put in a realistic model based on a bunch of research (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=191034). Is this in yet?

Oh... do we have a placeholder right now that is not properly modeled? I thought heatblur had put in a realistic model based on a bunch of research (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=191034). Is this in yet?

No.

HB's new one is not yet in DCS.

What's currently in DCS is ED's many years old one, for use by the old AI F-14.

On another note:

I always find missile/weapon conversation amusing in the net. When I was in the USAF, with clearance, I had no access to any information regarding true missile performance, PK etc. So I think is amazing how many people know so much about missiles true performance from things they read on the net. Oh well.

This!

I was thinking last night that, in addition to being the best airborne mobile SAM site in DCS, it's also going to be able to fill in for the AWACS in the case that someone starts knocking E-3/A-50s out of the sky.

I don't see why REDFOR will be crying ...

Most probably BLUEFOR is going to be the one crying when Iranian F-14As are shooting them down

Wuaaa, how can he have the same toy as me, wuaa

Tweaked properly, the AIM-54 will just be one more threat to consider and defend against, just like every other missile.

There will probably be a few folks who whine that either the F-14/Phoenix combo is too OP and others who will complain that their AIM-54s aren't as effective as they'd hoped, so they can't kill literally everything from 100 miles out. Some MP sessions will probably ban either the missile or the jet for some reason or another, but after the dust settles it'll just be one more threat system to plan against or asset to integrate into the battle order.

No.

 

HB's new one is not yet in DCS.

 

What's currently in DCS is ED's many years old one, for use by the old AI F-14.

Ah, thank you. Well in that case, my testing is not predictive of the final state of the F-14 + AIM-54 combo.

Though I will say in its current state, the AIM-54 is much harder to outmaneuver than most AA missiles. There's not much else that I have to pull 9G in a split-s while beaming to trash.

Not much point to this thread any longer -- this has already been covered elsewhere at length.

Without the AIM-54 what would a Tomcat loadout look like?

5 aim-7 + 2 aim-9

Without the AIM-54 what would a Tomcat loadout look like?

6x Aim-7, 2x Aim-9

4x Aim-7 4x Aim-9

5X Aim-7, 3x Aim-9

8x Aim-120, 2x Aim-9

15x Aim-152, 2x Aim-9 :gun_rifle:

It will probably be banned in some multiplayer servers. I've already spoken to one server owner who has stated it will.

I'm not so sure that the final AIM-54 will be that overpowering in its final form, but it's hard to tell.

At close to max range, a missile is low on energy and easy to trash. At least in DCS, this is certainly the case with the R-33 launched by the MiG-31, which outranges my AMRAAMs by tens of miles but that I can lazily evade with three level turns to 30 degree in either direction while keeping my own radar painting the bandit. At closer ranges of course I have to work harder, but at max range it's not hitting me unless I fly straight and level for the most part.

The AIM-54 in its current form is, well, insane. The very first launch against you from max range, even after traveling about 50nm, has enough energy to require some serious diving, beaming, and G (6 to 9 G) to trash.

At least today, a BVR engagement against an F-14 is ultra-hard-mode, but against a MiG-31 is really easy (at least with both on excellent AI) under even, head-on joust conditions of 60nm separation, 30,000 ft).

Heatblur is not going for balance, but rather for realism, so this doesn't mean that the AIM-54 will end up performing like the R-33 does in DCS today, but my suspicion is that it won't be quite the killer it is now. I have no real world data to back up this suspicion -- just call it a hunch.

I'm not so sure that the final AIM-54 will be that overpowering in its final form, but it's hard to tell.

 

At close to max range, a missile is low on energy and easy to trash. At least in DCS, this is certainly the case with the R-33 launched by the MiG-31, which outranges my AMRAAMs by tens of miles but that I can lazily evade with three level turns to 30 degree in either direction while keeping my own radar painting the bandit. At closer ranges of course I have to work harder, but at max range it's not hitting me unless I fly straight and level for the most part.

 

The AIM-54 in its current form is, well, insane. The very first launch against you from max range, even after traveling about 50nm, has enough energy to require some serious diving, beaming, and G (6 to 9 G) to trash.

 

At least today, a BVR engagement against an F-14 is ultra-hard-mode, but against a MiG-31 is really easy (at least with both on excellent AI) under even, head-on joust conditions of 60nm separation, 30,000 ft).

 

Heatblur is not going for balance, but rather for realism, so this doesn't mean that the AIM-54 will end up performing like the R-33 does in DCS today, but my suspicion is that it won't be quite the killer it is now. I have no real world data to back up this suspicion -- just call it a hunch.

Unscientifically, I feel like the Heatblur Phoenix will perform like the R-33 at max range, and the DCS Phoenix at 10-20nm.

The things I imagine happening;

- No mater how the missile behaves, group A will complain that it is not realistic, Group B will complain that it is.

 

On another note:

I always find missile/weapon conversation amusing in the net. When I was in the USAF, with clearance, I had no access to any information regarding true missile performance, PK etc. So I think is amazing how many people know so much about missiles true performance from things they read on the net. Oh well.

No matter how secret they keep the details, an engineer can make some pretty good educated guesses based on public knowledge. The physical dimensions including the size of the fins are known or can be inferred from photos, so a full aerodynamic model of possible performance at any speed can be created. How much energy the solid rocket contains can be figured out as well. I'm sure there are secret fuel formulations but how much better than public domain formulations can they really be?

That's irrelevant, there are so many mirror configurations that it would be difficult to get the correct flyout model, plus the correct angle of attack characteristics, etcetc.

It will probably be banned in some multiplayer servers. I've already spoken to one server owner who has stated it will.

That's unfortunate. Probably without the -54, not many F-14 flyers will show up there. The F-14's other weapons options are rather limited, and the -54 is its only Fox 3 weapon. The Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles are SARH and IR respectively, so instead of an F-14 having some advantage over Su-33, MiG-29S, and other jets with an ARH missile, it will instead be a generation behind in weaponeering for the sake of "balance" and "fairness." So the F-14 guys will probably avoid these servers because they'd be at the same disadvantage other aircraft would be against them on the servers where the -54 isn't banned.

I can understand no one likes to lose. And no one likes to be faced with an enemy weapon system that is so powerful. How do you think the Soviets felt? Or the Iraqis? The more mature reaction here is not to ban a weapon or airplane as if you are banning a cheater, but to do what the F-14's real world opponents did and develop tactics to defeat it.

Unscientifically, I feel like the Heatblur Phoenix will perform like the R-33 at max range, and the DCS Phoenix at 10-20nm.

6x Aim-7

where do you put the 6th aim-7?

because theres only room in the back of the pancake for 1

where do you put the 6th aim-7?

 

because theres only room in the back of the pancake for 1

You might be thinking of the TARPS equipped jets that sacrifice the forward tandem AIM-7 position for the hardware needed to operate the pod.

But regular F-14s have two forward AIM-7 positions and 2 tandem AIM-7 positions as seen here:

-Nick

thanks for the correction

i still had the image in my mind of 2-3-2 tomcats where the palettes blocked the foreward tandem slot.

It will probably be banned in some multiplayer servers. I've already spoken to one server owner who has stated it will.

very disappointing to hear

I wouldn't ever fly as a RIO if the cat was restricted from using the weapon system it was designed for.