AIM-54 Effect on MP (now that we can test it in the sim)

So much drama over nothing.

 

+ the fact, that the radar might be powerful, but it is not as easy to use as on a Hornet or a Eagle, and you have the human factor, which is new players who are inexperienced and to be honest, the typical DCSs user is not any good at almost anything, can't even understand installation instructions :lol:

can't upvote so qft

No one will cry more than the noob expecting a kill each time he fires an Aim-54.

I would never up vote anyone that decides to insult the community in order to prove their point.

Insults ?

*check's the 2.5 transition thread and the F/A-18 section*

Facts ?

My point was proven before my add on, so your statement is invalid.

So if you take it as an insult, are you implying that it is true ?

Well, surely they will have better kill ratio than crappy R-27R\ER family. At least player can eat chips after firing missile 2x further than enemy with R-27 :D

Can't wait to spamraam those missiles against poor reds :D

No one will cry more than the noob expecting a kill each time he fires an Aim-54.

What's funny is that, with the lack of worry about tossing a million dollars downrange with every Phoenix shot, I think the smart player isn't going to be worried about hitting someone with their shots. Give the enemy something to think about, close behind the shot, and fire off a Sparrow.

Hell, you could load up six Phoenixes and just launch them at rMax. Watch the comedy as your targets panic when the missiles go active, even if they can defeat them with a quick 90 degree turn.

I find it funny that people are concerned about balance and how other aircraft will cope.

People fail to remember there are simmers flying the Mig 21s and dominitating F-15s and SUs, its a matter of awarness, tactics and bfm.

Also another thing which adds to my point is this thread....

Look at it....

The OP said he was mistaken and the topic should closed, but all the same people who start all the drama as always continued, by talking about balance and stuff which is OT

I was thinking last night that, in addition to being the best airborne mobile SAM site in DCS, it's also going to be able to fill in for the AWACS in the case that someone starts knocking E-3/A-50s out of the sky.

That's precisely what the Iranians used it for (one of the roles, anyway) during the conflict with Iraq in the 1980s. Single jet missions that made certain not to cross the border.

Cool as it would be to have them, Iranian Tomcats were F-14A-90-GRs manufactured in the late 1970s. The F-14A release will probably be an F-14A-125-GR to start with. The difference in capability would be notable.

But yeah, I'd support having them eventually.

Cool as it would be to have them, Iranian Tomcats were F-14A-90-GRs manufactured in the late 1970s. The F-14A release will probably be an F-14A-125-GR to start with. The difference in capability would be notable.

 

But yeah, I'd support having them eventually.

They've been doing homegrown upgrades too, I wonder if they have modernized the cockpits. I haven't found anything.

If you can't figure out from what I wrote, that a customer base who spent 100$'s of dollars on other aircraft might be concerned that they can't compete against the AIM-54 only found on one particular aircraft in multiplayer, which you are basically forced to use in the first place because of the lack of single-player content, I don't have anything to say to you either. This wouldn't be as big of an issue if there was a lot of single-player content to fall back on, that is the relevance.

 

It might not be here, but it will be here. Better to air concerns first before it comes up, than have to deal with something broken later.

 

Reality? DCS? The same reality were people can't take off and land from the same direction of the runway, you can get shot down with the main cannon of a tank in a helicopter beyond visual range, AAA emplacements are manned by what appears to be Medal of Honor/Hero of Russia recipients and aircraft carriers have the same missile launch envelope as an S-300 SAM site? We must be playing some other sim.

 

Probably for the best, I didn't think I would have to spell things out to you like a woman breaking up with her boyfriend that just doesn't get it. I'd be surprised if you weren't banned over this in the first place. This was pretty civil until you showed up, but you and the same couple of other people keep stirring up the same trouble because you cannot acknowledge someone else may have a different opinion and move on. You're not the only person with a right to have thoughts on things. :mad:

To be honest, DCS is not really built to be a balanced multiplayer experience. Some in the community have tried to craft a semi-balanced experience from that and doing so is certainly possible on a mission making level but it will involve making some tough decisions about what kinds of restrictions a server should put in place.

Here is the thing. As we get more modern aircraft (like the Hornet especially) with more and more modern weapons, it is going to get really difficult to fit them into "balanced" multiplayer scenarios without HEAVILY restricting loadouts. This is fine but those restrictions have to stay on a server owner/mission creation level. If they go any further than that, you start restricting DCS's ability to provide good, realistic scenarios for those who want to make them.

In the end, the Tomcat needs to have a AIM-54 and it needs to be as capable as the realism in DCS allows. It falls on mission makers and server owners to restrict it if it bothers people. This is not a issue that ED or its third parties really should be dealing with.

If you can't figure out from what I wrote, that a customer base who spent 100$'s of dollars on other aircraft might be concerned that they can't compete against the AIM-54 only found on one particular aircraft in multiplayer, which you are basically forced to use in the first place because of the lack of single-player content, I don't have anything to say to you either. This wouldn't be as big of an issue if there was a lot of single-player content to fall back on, that is the relevance.

 

It might not be here, but it will be here. Better to air concerns first before it comes up, than have to deal with something broken later.

 

Reality? DCS? The same reality were people can't take off and land from the same direction of the runway, you can get shot down with the main cannon of a tank in a helicopter beyond visual range, AAA emplacements are manned by what appears to be Medal of Honor/Hero of Russia recipients and aircraft carriers have the same missile launch envelope as an S-300 SAM site? We must be playing some other sim.

 

Probably for the best, I didn't think I would have to spell things out to you like a woman breaking up with her boyfriend that just doesn't get it. I'd be surprised if you weren't banned over this in the first place. This was pretty civil until you showed up, but you and the same couple of other people keep stirring up the same trouble because you cannot acknowledge someone else may have a different opinion and move on. You're not the only person with a right to have thoughts on things. :mad:

The same crappy argument has been put many times by redfor or M2000 pilots against fox3 missiles...

Fly what you like but don’t restrict others in what they can fly or their weapons for that matter and call it balancing. It’s retarded.

Thread derail TLDR :

The plane I like to fly is inferior to the F-14 so the F-14 needs to be nerfed because otherwise it's not fair.

If the above is not applied, multiplayer should not exist.

/TLDR

Like..... WTF ?

I was starting to write something to add to the thread, but I think it's done...

Can't add anymore rep SHaDoW....

REDFOR fanboys will be crying all over the forums when I'm done with them..

 

I'll just turn on my AWG-9 and they'll start burning energy turning. I'll wait till about 30 miles to make my first shot, just as they're about to setup their first launch. At that point they'll assume that

 

1. I dont see them (i will)

2. That now is the time to commit

 

At 30 miles my AIM-54 will run them into the dirt.

I really think some servers will give f-14 s to both sides considering IRIAF as a REDFOR operator of F-14A. But I agree about nagging and crying part !!!:doh:

They've been doing homegrown upgrades too, I wonder if they have modernized the cockpits. I haven't found anything.

No upgrades really happened to them, or gone further than prototypes, the only thing that might have happened to the whole active fleet(probably using inactive fleet spare parts) is probably the ability to overhaul the tomcat.

this is how thing goes on on Iranian army: they release some bad ass prototype but they don't have the budget to mass produce it, or sometimes it's just some propaganda sh** and are no where near the reality ( like the F-14AM or F-313 ).

And by the way I've seen plenty of the cockpit photos and videos of f-14 and found to modernized cockpit, you can find them in my tomcat footage thread.

That's unfortunate, Atooyi. The F-14 fan in me hurts to hear it. But at least these birds can keep flying. I really wish the US and Iran were on friendlier terms. It sickens me to think that the soda can I'm drinking from might have been a Tomcat once and got shredded because we were worried about where the parts might have ended up.

As to the issue of how balanced this would be, the only way I can think that banning the Phoenix would work out and still even be kinda fair is to just nix all the ARH missiles. It won't be at all realistic, but it's an option. I'd have the same complaints going up against an Su-33 with an R-77 while I only get Sparrows as he might have going up against my F-14 armed with an AIM-54.

Before we really know the effects, it's gonna take the release of this module. We'll know how things shake out once that happens. I'm not surprised an MP ban is being tossed about by some, but I am disappointed.

That's unfortunate, Atooyi. The F-14 fan in me hurts to hear it. But at least these birds can keep flying. I really wish the US and Iran were on friendlier terms. It sickens me to think that the soda can I'm drinking from might have been a Tomcat once and got shredded because we were worried about where the parts might have ended up.

 

As to the issue of how balanced this would be, the only way I can think that banning the Phoenix would work out and still even be kinda fair is to just nix all the ARH missiles. It won't be at all realistic, but it's an option. I'd have the same complaints going up against an Su-33 with an R-77 while I only get Sparrows as he might have going up against my F-14 armed with an AIM-54.

 

Before we really know the effects, it's gonna take the release of this module. We'll know how things shake out once that happens. I'm not surprised an MP ban is being tossed about by some, but I am disappointed.

If it makes you feel better..aviation grade aluminum from a Tomcat wouldn't have been reused into soda containers.

Thanks for the attempt, Racefuel. No, that really doesn't help. Lol. But I appreciate it.

The F-14 is going to have the advantage just by having two seats. With the addition of the powerful radar and Phoenix missiles, it's going to be a beast in theory.

I know that, on day one, someone in a MiG-21 is going to pop out of the mountains and knock one out of the sky.

It's a challenge that's going to need to be overcome. Anyone can kill anyone in this game, as long as you keep to your strength and their weaknesses. The F-14 has weak spots that could easily be exploited by an "inferior" aircraft. Even the banning of active radar missiles is going to leave the F-14 at an advantage. I'm planning on buying the Tomcat, so I'm going to take a dim view on servers that ban it, but there will be some.

A good counterpoint is the advantage that Hornet pilots are going to have. Say you're loaded up for CAP, but cruise along towards the ground targets to provide cover for the A2G folks; someone is going to pounce on you and get a nasty surprise. Heck, really any jet could do that. Banning aircraft for being overpowered just makes the game less diverse, in my opinion. I'm going to be happy for the -21 pilot (or even better, MiG-15) who knocks the first F-14 down.

Exactly. Why in the world would someone try to take on a long-range, all weather, BVR missile truck like the F-14 in a short-legged, day-only, WVR dogfighter out in the open on the Tomcat's terms? Why complain when you've handed the guy every advantage you possibly can? Keep in the weeds, use the terrain, and wait until he gets impatient and saunters over to your turf to try to fight by your rules, then pounce him and put him in the bag. Getting impatient is gonna get you killed. Fighting another jet on that jet's terms is gonna get you killed. Fly smart and wait until he makes a mistake. If he never comes to get you, then tough noogies, it's gonna have to be a draw. Survive the engagement and shoot something another day. This isn't Air Quake. Educate yourself on some tactics and use them.

"But I want a turn-and-burn dogfight." Go to a guns-only server if that's what really calls. Well planned and executed engagements in a missile environment are gonna last seconds with the other guy not ever knowing what hit him. A MiG-21 climbing out of a valley and knocking down a passing F-14 that was too impatient stick to his own turf and use his own strengths is exactly such a trap. If done right, it's not gonna devolve into a turning engagement. You'll be at his 6 O'clock low in the blind spot putting an R60 up the tail pipe of your choice and it'll be over that quick. And you're gonna feel really good about yourself for taking down the guy that thought his 100-mile AWG-9 was the battlespace king.

I grew up around Tomcats, so this module is a day one purchase for me. I've been waiting for it since Fleet Defender stopped being current. And if I get bagged by a guy in a WVR fighter because I gave all my jet's advantages away, I'll virtually shake the guy's hand for a fight well played.

The multiplayer is not problem even if it would be all about Mig-21Bis/F-5E vs F-14.

The problem is that there is no fear of death, there is no fear of failure. And there is no fear of spending missiles that you might very well have limited amount in reserve!

The DCS servers needs to implement a "permanent death", an account system where each ED customer account is used so everyone of them can have a n+1 "virtual pilots" in given server, and each of them has a track record of performance. Once you get killed, that virtual pilot is killed. If you manage to eject, then it is up to others to either complete a SAR mission (automatically generated) by human pilot OR computer pilot. But that requires that pilot is first found, so it can take even hours if not days depending how the server is running before ejected pilot is back to hangar.

If the pilot is KIA, then it takes longer time for that virtual pilot to get n+1 pilots filled again. So there wouldn't be people flying around just trying something heroic (stupid) instead running away to safe their lives!

Same thing with the aircraft, virtual pilots losing their aircraft are not given a new ones right away, nor repaired in 3 minutes! Meaning, every pilot would need to have n+1 virtual pilots in reserve so they can swap their pilot while waiting that the ejected one or trashed aircraft virtual pilot gets processed through the virtual pilot roster.

Such a real-virtual system would bring the reality and the real balance to the multiplayer as everyone would start to think twice when to engage and where to fly!

Give there a honorable carrot too, pilots who manage their virtual pilots best, gets their names to virtual hall-of-fame. They get their bragging rights...

AIM-54 effect would be a minimal as there are other far more dangerous things around.

Exactly. Why in the world would someone try to take on a long-range, all weather, BVR missile truck like the F-14 in a short-legged, day-only, WVR dogfighter out in the open on the Tomcat's terms? Why complain when you've handed the guy every advantage you possibly can? Keep in the weeds, use the terrain, and wait until he gets impatient and saunters over to your turf to try to fight by your rules, then pounce him and put him in the bag. Getting impatient is gonna get you killed. Fighting another jet on that jet's terms is gonna get you killed. Fly smart and wait until he makes a mistake. If he never comes to get you, then tough noogies, it's gonna have to be a draw. Survive the engagement and shoot something another day. This isn't Air Quake. Educate yourself on some tactics and use them.

 

"But I want a turn-and-burn dogfight." Go to a guns-only server if that's what really calls. Well planned and executed engagements in a missile environment are gonna last seconds with the other guy not ever knowing what hit him. A MiG-21 climbing out of a valley and knocking down a passing F-14 that was too impatient stick to his own turf and use his own strengths is exactly such a trap. If done right, it's not gonna devolve into a turning engagement. You'll be at his 6 O'clock low in the blind spot putting an R60 up the tail pipe of your choice and it'll be over that quick. And you're gonna feel really good about yourself for taking down the guy that thought his 100-mile AWG-9 was the battlespace king.

 

I grew up around Tomcats, so this module is a day one purchase for me. I've been waiting for it since Fleet Defender stopped being current. And if I get bagged by a guy in a WVR fighter because I gave all my jet's advantages away, I'll virtually shake the guy's hand for a fight well played.

Maybe I'm weird, but I want to give away my Tomcat's advantages. I want to fight a MiG on their terms. I want to do all this, because I want to prove that the Tomcat is not some unbeatable pox upon multiplayer.

Hell, a good MiG pilot should, barring the odd incident or two where they get killed by a freak shot, return from engagements with Tomcats. Granted, they should be using every trick in the book to engage, but a smart pilot will realize they're out of options, low on fuel, and it's time to go home and keep their life.

Nah, don't teach them bad habits. Better that they have to fight hard to get you and learn from every loss and win. That's how they'll get more competitive as you also get more competitive. Make them work for their victories as you are working for yours. That's how they'll know the Tomcat can be beat in MP. They earned it.

At the end of a lot of MP scenarios, there should be a LOT of guys that go home because they used the tactics right even if it didn't resort in them getting a kill. At least they got to fly home having been smart than walk home because they were dumb. That may not be the most exciting thing, not seeing explosions everywhere and watching your kill count rack up on the scoreboard, but these kinds of scenarios aren't and shouldn't be about that. A turkey shoot on a zerg rush stops being fun after a while. It should be about your package getting in smart, hitting their assigned target, and getting back out without the fan blades becoming totally covered in fecal matter, or sneaking down low in the weeds, blowing by the escorting fighters, disrupting the mission effectiveness of a strike package, and vanishing before the escorts can respond.

Thread derail TLDR :

 

The plane I like to fly is inferior to the F-14 so the F-14 needs to be nerfed because otherwise it's not fair.

If the above is not applied, multiplayer should not exist.

 

/TLDR

 

Like..... WTF ?

 

I was starting to write something to add to the thread, but I think it's done...

This flawed notion of fairness already exists in MP with the AMRAAM being restricted. I don't agree with it in the least.

Aircraft and weapons have never been developed with the intent of making it a fair fight.

Nah, don't teach them bad habits. Better that they have to fight hard to get you and learn from every loss and win. That's how they'll get more competitive as you also get more competitive. Make them work for their victories as you are working for yours. That's how they'll know the Tomcat can be beat in MP. They earned it.

 

At the end of a lot of MP scenarios, there should be a LOT of guys that go home because they used the tactics right even if it didn't resort in them getting a kill. At least they got to fly home having been smart than walk home because they were dumb. That may not be the most exciting thing, not seeing explosions everywhere and watching your kill count rack up on the scoreboard, but these kinds of scenarios aren't and shouldn't be about that. A turkey shoot on a zerg rush stops being fun after a while. It should be about your package getting in smart, hitting their assigned target, and getting back out without the fan blades becoming totally covered in fecal matter, or sneaking down low in the weeds, blowing by the escorting fighters, disrupting the mission effectiveness of a strike package, and vanishing before the escorts can respond.

I agree there needs to be a critical incentive to survive. Some other flight combat sims have systems encouraging such behavior.