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IFLOLS vs. ICLS


SnapRoll

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There is an ACLS comparison procedure, but it is between the pilot and controller. On the final bearing the controller will say: “ACLS lock, on say needles“. Then the pilot replies with what the ACLS (not ICLS) is showing (“up and right”). Then the controller will check his ACLS repeater to see if that matches. If so he will say “concur.” Nothing to do with ICLS.

 

Yeah, I know about that procedure. I read in many papers about comparing both and having the pilot always cross checking that both matched. If you say that's not a thing in real naval aviation, then it surely must not be. I didn't really want to get much into this as it wasn't the point in the first place. Only thing I wanted to clarify is the wrong implementation of ICLS and IFLOS that the SC has. That's all.

Stay safe

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Exactly, ACLS has DMC (Deck Motion Compensation), something like the predictive thing you said. The ICLS is raw beam BUT it draws an earth referenced angle so it is stabilized by being mounted on a torsion bar like I said before. IFLOS is also mounted on a torsion bar. Both things are incorrectly modeled in DCS.

 

As it is now you don't need any compensation. To cause even a moderate deck movement you have to setup some seriously hellish winds with turbulence that would make me sick even in VR:huh:

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As it is now you don't need any compensation. To cause even a moderate deck movement you have to setup some seriously hellish winds with turbulence that would make me sick even in VR:huh:

 

Hey Gripesy! Yeah I know, but the simulation should be correct IMHO. For the price I paid at least.

Stay safe

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I’ve just tested it again and if I take IFLOLS as a reference I get a bolter and if I only use ICSL I get a _OK_ 3-wire.

 

I took a screenshot from the cockpit with ICLS lined up and also at the exact same time from the LSO station. I think it is pretty clear that something is off with IFLOLS.

 

The LSO screenshot also shows that the ship is not pitching at this time, so all this stabilizing stuff can be ignored.

 

As a noob Hornet pilot, I'm reluctant to blame the sim for something that may be down to my lack of experience, but I've been coming to much the same conclusion. As I've been getting better at following the IFLOLS close in, I've been getting more bolters. As I said in an earlier post, I'd taken to turning off the ICLS once I called the ball, since if they agree they aren't both necessary - but if they don't agree, and it is the IFLOLS that is wrong, I've clearly been making things harder for myself.

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I’ve just tested it again and if I take IFLOLS as a reference I get a bolter and if I only use ICSL I get a _OK_ 3-wire.

 

I took a screenshot from the cockpit with ICLS lined up and also at the exact same time from the LSO station. I think it is pretty clear that something is off with IFLOLS.

 

The LSO screenshot also shows that the ship is not pitching at this time, so all this stabilizing stuff can be ignored.

How did you resize overlay my one is 3 time bigger

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How did you resize overlay my one is 3 time bigger

 

+1

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How did you resize overlay my one is 3 time bigger

 

That’s the default size. I am running 4k, zoomed in and only cut the HUD out for posting this picture.

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As I've been getting better at following the IFLOLS close in, I've been getting more bolters.

Before the Supercarrier module i would fly ICLS without much of a problem. Since IFLOLS has come into play i have a lot more bolters too. So i turned off the ICLS but that doesn't make it better. And it gets even messier when i take the LSO into account.

You're a bit low...(according to the IFLOLS he's correct).

Power...(maybe, i don't think so).

I add a bit more power, the most gentle i can, speed goes up a tad, LSO says then again... power...power... at this point i already know i'm going to touchdown to far away on the deck but still the LSO...power...power... and then comes the bolter...bolter.

And then i always have a: why did i listen to him moment.

Especially a problem at night.


Edited by Lange_666

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Yes, I really think that the LSO and IFlOLS are not quite reflecting exactly what the jet is doing.....any way to check this?

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  • 1 month later...

Hi hein, I am personally not to use what the issue is here. I see the point you are trying to make, but if you read my manual, the IFLOLS section will show we are talking inches here not feet. I’ll be impressed if you can fly that accurate because I can’t.

 

Mis-alignment and Mis-calibrations irl. are often much more excessive. And even if calibrated perfectly it would only show the correct values under ISA conditions. As temperature and pressure will directly influence what you see.

 

Fly the ball and use the GS for awareness and a rough idea of how you are doing during the approach turn,

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I think a lot of the issues ( if for example you were trying follow the LSO instructions) result from lag...By the time you hear him say "Power" ( by which time, you will already be low and getting lower perhaps..) you give it some throttle, and the engines spool up, perhaps at least a second or two has passed....that's a long time/ distance in the groove.

 

So perhaps it's better to rely more on the IFOLS, which cuts out this delay, and think of the LSO calls as more "ear candy"

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Is it a RL procedure to tune in the ICLS channel on a CASE I recovery?

I learned to do it using the TACAN+IFLOLS...

From what I understand ICLS is only tuned for CASE III and first part of CASE II.

But I might be wrong, so I want to know...

Thanks.

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Is it a RL procedure to tune in the ICLS channel on a CASE I recovery?

I learned to do it using the TACAN+IFLOLS...

From what I understand ICLS is only tuned for CASE III and first part of CASE II.

But I might be wrong, so I want to know...

Thanks.

 

Hi Muan,

 

There is nothing holding you from using the ICLS indications "bullseye" guidance during the approach turn. This to help you picture roughly how you are doing on the descent angle. Please not it should not be used for line-up and not to fly the last segment of the pattern. The Pattern is a VFR procedure and should be flown in relation to the IFLOLS.

 

Please have a look in the ONLY manual out there that will give you all information about the Real life procedures used for carrier operations. https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=754

 

Note: The Pattern does not belong to the Case I nor does it belong to a Case II.

The Case I and II procedures will lead you to the initial, from there on the VFR pattern is flown.

The Case III does not lead you to the deck, it simply ends at the minima,

 

Hope that helps

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Hi Muan,

 

There is nothing holding you from using the ICLS indications "bullseye" guidance during the approach turn. This to help you picture roughly how you are doing on the descent angle. Please not it should not be used for line-up and not to fly the last segment of the pattern. The Pattern is a VFR procedure and should be flown in relation to the IFLOLS.

 

Please have a look in the ONLY manual out there that will give you all information about the Real life procedures used for carrier operations. https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=754

 

Note: The Pattern does not belong to the Case I nor does it belong to a Case II.

The Case I and II procedures will lead you to the initial, from there on the VFR pattern is flown.

The Case III does not lead you to the deck, it simply ends at the minima,

 

Hope that helps

:thumbup: Thanks!!
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  • 1 year later...

Hi folks

Wags latest ATC video just remined me of this thread. I personally just got accustomed to ignoring the ball when getting close.

Pieterras excellent manual states this: Fly the ball all the way to touchdown. Landing should be a surprise.

This just seems impossible with the current implementation.

IFLOLS_1.jpg

IFLOLS_2.jpg

IFLOLS_3.jpg

  • Like 2

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On 10/17/2021 at 1:02 PM, SnapRoll said:

Hi folks

 

Wags latest ATC video just remined me of this thread. I personally just got accustomed to ignoring the ball when getting close.

 

Pieterras excellent manual states this: Fly the ball all the way to touchdown. Landing should be a surprise.

 

This just seems impossible with the current implementation.

 

IFLOLS_1.jpg

IFLOLS_2.jpg

IFLOLS_3.jpg

 

I'll have to agree with you on this one.

In my experience, if I fly the ball dead center, from In Close to In Wires , in the best case, I end up with a #4 wire, but usually a bolter.

 

Back in the days when I flew the Hornet in F/A-18 Korea (they had some good training videos/tutorials about many aspects of flying the Hornet) I vividly remember, in the video about doing carrier landings, the instructor said, regarding closing in on "In Wires", "Dont chase the ball". Whether or not this is relevant, or factual, I dont know.

 

An interesting observation, regarding the PLAT-camera, is that if the pilot's head is in the middle of the crosshair at hook-to-deck-contact (or, from In Close to In Wires, for that matter), you get a nicely placed hook, right between wire 2 and 3. I know the PLAT is used for Line Up, but still, it is spot-on for GS-alignment in the same phase where the Ball is not.

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Funny thing is, in dcs the PLAT camera is earth reference stabilized like IRL, but the IFLOS lacks the torsion bar simulation that makes it also earth reference stabilized.

I remember the ICLS had that problem too but I think it was fixed.

Stay safe

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On 10/23/2021 at 10:45 AM, hein22 said:

Funny thing is, in dcs the PLAT camera is earth reference stabilized like IRL, but the IFLOS lacks the torsion bar simulation that makes it also earth reference stabilized.

I remember the ICLS had that problem too but I think it was fixed.

The ICLS was probably fixed, then again, the deck pitching has been dumbed down a lot so I can't say for sure. With 15, 20 knot wind (30, 35 WOD) the 'bullseye' seems to be stable in pitch. The deck movement is very moderate and slow.

So... I modified the test a little and then the test became entertainment:

https://youtu.be/b_IRbW_1Ob8

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13 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

The ICLS was probably fixed, then again, the deck pitching has been dumbed down a lot so I can't say for sure. With 15, 20 knot wind (30, 35 WOD) the 'bullseye' seems to be stable in pitch. The deck movement is very moderate and slow.

So... I modified the test a little and then the test became entertainment:

https://youtu.be/b_IRbW_1Ob8

Jeez!!! Nice landing dude! I think the carrier's kitchen will have a very busy afternoon.

Back to the test: I think the ICLS was pretty stabilized within some margins like IRL.

But the IFLOS was all over the place. Probably the DCS lacks the torsion bar simulation.

Stay safe

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  • 2 weeks later...

So why is the FLOLS overlay different close in? Surely this is an issue? Most traps I do, I stop looking at it from about the last 2 or 3 seconds, as it is often telling you to do something that will result in a crash or bolter. I agree with Snap Roll.....have been on the verge of posting about this myself several times...

 

And yeah Gripes....some landing!!!


Edited by markturner1960

System specs: PC1 :Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10, Quest Pro, Samsung Odyssey G9 Neo monitor. Tir5. PC2 ( Helo) Scan 3XS Intel 9900 K, 32 GB Ram, 2080Ti, 50 inch Phillips monitor

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Viper: WinWing MFSSB base with F-16 grip, Winwing F-16 throttle, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with AH64D grip, Cyclic : Virpil CM3 base & TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Total controls AH64 MFD's,  TEDAC Unit. 

 

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On 10/24/2021 at 2:26 PM, Gripes323 said:

So... I modified the test a little and then the test became entertainment:

https://youtu.be/b_IRbW_1Ob8

That is amazing!  And the LSO only gave you a "C"?  After that landing they should have made you Fleet Admiral.  When I get too cocky about my carrier ops skills I'm giving this "Head wind 97 kts. Boat 24 kts" setup a try 🤣

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