Few questions about dogfighting

In a one on one engagement in a german plane (190/109) VS a spitfire does the spit have a large advantage generally?

 

 

 

I really can't seem to win against the spits in the german planes, and would also like to know the best tactics for escaping once I need space to get up and away from them.

 

 

 

The enemy always seems to catch me when I try to escape by flying up and away (turning for deflection) from them to gain altitude, and I never seem to be able to escape.

 

 

 

Is it generally a pretty daunting task to beat a 109/190 in an engagement where both planes are at the same alt? Cause I'm not really able to B and Z under such conditions am I?

 

 

 

Any pointers?

AI or multiplayer?

In a one on one engagement in a german plane (190/109) VS a spitfire does the spit have a large advantage generally?

No, it doesn't. But if you get into turns with it you're screwed because, guess what? The other advantage of Spit together with close turns is sprint racing in short space so when you try to scape he can catch you in the short distance until either 109 or 190 get their higher top speed and run away from the slower Spit.

 

 

Keep speed, keep altitude, don't turn Spits and they just can't touch you. Do otherwise and you're dead, either MP or SP.

 

 

 

S!

AI or multiplayer?

 

 

AI exclusively at the moment.

 

 

AI or multiplayer?

 

 

 

 

AI exclusively at the moment.

 

Let me be a bit more clear. I'm talking about say on an instant action mission. Both planes meet at the same altitude so what does the BF109 do once he has missed a head to head? He musn't turn back but must attempt to escape, by flying up and away? Or down and then up again after gaining more speed?

 

If I try up, the spit seems to have no problem catching me, even if I am turning and climbing in an attempt to force him to try a deflection. I think it might just be a problem with the AI and damage model at the moment (don't get me wrong I do suck too) that once they have you, they can snipe and rip your wings off with basically one burst.

 

Sorry to be such a noob but can someone spell it out, in that situation, what exactly would you yourself do to escape, and how exactly you would fly? I can never seem to manage it, although I have no such problem in the spitfire but thats because it can turn so well and the AI seems to have a similar problem as I do when in a 109 and fighting a spitfire.

 

The 109 should be boom and zoom, but at an eqaul altitude, there can be no boom and no zoom, so my only option seems to be to escape and climb, but the spitfire although not as fast, is no slouch over short distances, and the AI doesent miss very much!

Edited December 18, 2018 by Wolf8312

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The 109 should be boom and zoom, but at an eqaul altitude, there can be no boom and no zoom, so my only option seems to be to escape and climb, but the spitfire although not as fast, is no slouch over short distances, and the AI doesent miss very much!

 

 

You're pretty right about the options you have. But instead of "escape" use "extend". Sounds much better. :D

 

 

 

In a head to head just keep flying at full speed until you have extended far enough to safely do an Immelmann and accelerate again to your superior speed for the next pass. Against the AI vertical movements work best, most of the times.

What you do really depends on what your mission is --if you are taking the mission serious.

 

CAP does not mean you have to patrol at the same altitude at where you expect the enemy to be at. Climb 3- to 5000 feet above where the enemy is, to gain energy and be able to use your strengths --especially in the 109. Use Boom-n-Zoom. DO NOT get into a turn-fight.

What you do really depends on what your mission is --if you are taking the mission serious.

 

CAP does not mean you have to patrol at the same altitude at where you expect the enemy to be at. Climb 3- to 5000 feet above where the enemy is, to gain energy and be able to use your strengths --especially in the 109. Use Boom-n-Zoom. DO NOT get into a turn-fight.

 

 

Right okay got. It's pretty much boom n zoom, or GTFO.

 

 

I have noticed on some 109 instant action missions I begin at altitude.

 

 

You're pretty right about the options you have. But instead of "escape" use "extend". Sounds much better.

Yep right 'extend' haha! Now I know that it bothers you I'm going to say it just to annoy you from now on! :pilotfly:

Better go an practice this so called Immelmann maneuver now! Thanks for the tips. Just shot down a couple of mustangs with B and Z, so getting better, but P51 is easier than the spit!

There is nothing saying that after extending, you cannot climb to higher than where the enemy is, vector back in and patrol from there. Think -mission- not engagement.

There is nothing saying that after extending, you cannot climb to higher than where the enemy is, vector back in and patrol from there. Think -mission- not engagement.

 

 

I agree in spirit but at the moment I'm just playing scenarios that barely reeally qualify as missions, so just want to know how to improve my dogfighting. I knew german planes were energy fighters that you were not supposed to turn with them, but was wondering if it was maybe possible to sap the spitfires energy by bringing him down low taking evasive action, and then when he's depleted extend and come back at him. Or was this possible in RL? Cause it often happens to me against the AI, but if I try it Vs the AI it's nowhere near as successful, because as I said he makes few mistakes shooting wise.

 

 

 

Or basically if there was any possibility beside constant B and Z tactics. But this is because sometimes you will get caught unaware, with the same energy and the same altitude, so it seems to me under such conditions the spit has a massive advantage especially in game, due to the present AI and damage model.

 

 

 

Also wanted to know if there was any real possibility of success in a german plane, if not using B and Z tactics

AI does not adhere to the same physics laws as you and at the highest setting it can consistently snipe you at angles not possible for a human to achieve. Something you have to take into account when trying to apply real world tactics.

 

But if are caught unaware by an expert, then there isn't much you can do, same as in real life.

I'm also new to WWII birds and dogfighting in these planes and plays single player only but this is an interesting topic to me so just want to share my experience and a quite surprising observation between the two mentioned airframes so maybe someone can explain what's really happening.

The BF109K is one of my favorite WWII bird and one big reason is that it can run/climb/dive but at the same time can turn fight and have a descent low speed handling (a plane that has all the cards, to some extent).

In (the other sim) where the AI uses the same flight model as player, I used to be beaten by spits (V and IX, ACE AI) a lot and even in events that I did end up killing them, it takes me a good 20+ min time trying to do spiral climb, loop, extend, displacement rolls and hammerheads before I get a chance to place a good burst on him.

But then I tried another tactic, that is, turn with him horizontally, he may do some vertical manuvours but most of the time I choose not to follow unless necessary. I learned that if I control my stick force appropriately I can out turn him and get to his six within couple circles. It feels to me that although spits have a tight turning circle it can't sustain a good turn rate for long, which may due to its engine WEP timer or its aerodynamic characteristics (or just the bad AI, I can observe the spits wing shaking when I'm about to catch onto him, either meaning he is pulling too hard or he just can't sustain the turn anymore).

I'm wondering if the K4 can really win a sustained turn fight against spits in reality?

(Spit IX in DCS on excellent AI is another story)

 

edit: I was using the 1.98ATA K4 there so it's a bit more powerful down low and I was fighting him in 3000-4000m range

Edited December 29, 2018 by vadupleix

Turn sustainability depends on maintaining speed. This explains why:

 

 

As you see, who can turn tighter for how long depends on a large number of factors. With the Bf-109K4, the pilot-factor plays a larger role than in the Spitfire. A really good pilot is able to tickle more out of the Kurfürst than a less experience pilot.

 

So the answer to the question of which can turn tighter, is that it depends.