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Need some suggestions


Zimmerdylan

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I pre purchased the Sabre when it was first announced. I have owned both it and the Mig15 from their release dates. Honestly, I have never particularly enjoyed flying either of them. I may take a cruise around once in a while in one of them but I fly no missions or do any kind of challenge in them.

When the Hawk was released I purchased it. The plane was full of problems but I preferred it to the F86. All of the control issues with the Hawk that people seemed to have didn't hold a candle to the issues I have always had with the F86 and the Mig15. It seemed odd to me that people were shredding VEAO and the Hawk, when the F86 and Mig had what I saw as a very flawed flight model. More so than the Hawk.

Today, after a long absence from DCS, I flew the F86. All of those terrible issues that I had with it came rushing back like flood waters from a broken levy. It didn't take long before I was so frustrated that I shut down DCS and am shelving Belsimtek planes once again.

Maybe some of you feel my pain, maybe some of you don't see or understand what I dislike about these two planes. What I can tell you is that I do not plan on purchasing any Belsimtek modules down the line because of these issues.

So I am going to state my issues here and then maybe some of you can offer solutions or insight to me. Belsimtek has become my VEAO.

 

1. The nose of both of these planes is all over the screen. Controlling either plane is terrible. When you are trying to do anything requiring precision, it's like balancing a marble on the tip of a needle. The plane bounces like crazy with the smallest of movement. I have set my axis curve up to 30% and it has never helped. The plane just becomes sluggish on top of sloppy. No other module that I own acts like this. These two planes have always been this way and I absolutely dread doing anything in either of them.

 

2. I spend 90% of my time fighting the trim. The trim in these planes is horrible. There is no sweet spot. And by this I mean that there is no 100% sweet spot in any plane. But you can get relative stability to where you aren't fighting to keep the nose down or up. These planes don't trim worth a damn. You are either fighting going completely nose up, or into the ground. No plane in any sim that I fly is this bad. And yes, I know how to balance my trim with the throttle and all of that. These Belsimtek modules don't seem to be capable of trimming well. I spend more time fighting the plane than performing tasks in missions.

 

3. There just is no stability in general. When I have an easier time flying WWII planes that have no trim. There's a problem with the flight model of a modern jet IMO.

Keep in mind that I know about speed issues with both planes and how they become difficult to manage at higher speeds. These planes fly like crap at any speed.

 

I have always disliked these two planes for these reasons only. I want to fly and enjoy them but they're just no fun.

So........To that end. How do people who find these planes enjoyable feel about my issues. Am I crazy? Or am I just doing something wrong? Is there some secret to the trim? Do you find the nose of these planes to bounce like a rubber ball? If not, please share what you may be doing that I am not.

I personally find them less likable than the Hawk. I don't care if the cockpit textures aren't perfect as long as I can keep the plane steady. In my opinion, the Hawk was head over heels to Belsimtek in this area. This is a constant struggle in the Belsimtek panes and I let them sit on the shelf because of it.

 

 

Thanks


Edited by Zimmerdylan
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First of all, I'm not a professional and have not made any in-depth analysis comparing the flight characteristics of the real aircraft with the DCS version.

Secondly, I don't have the F-86.

 

But I do have the MiG-15 and I understand what your saying.

I just happen to have a completely different perspective.

 

Personally I love flying the MiG-15.

For much of the reasons why you dislike it so much. ;)

 

Like you I'm also struggling a bit with the controls.

For free flying, I think it's perfectly fine.

Yes, you need to hold on to the stick, but it's ok in my opinion.

I have to admit that I don't trim at all... :huh:

It's nothing like taking off or landing in a taildragger where you have apply maximum rudder and still feel that it's not enough.

 

I'm also struggling with dogfighting, although I blame that mostly on the muzzle velocity of the cannons.

Some historical accounts that I read confirm that dogfighting in the MiG-15 is difficult.

 

Overall, yes, the MiG-15 is a struggle.

To me that means character.

Again, I didn't compare it to the real aircraft, but to me it feels incredibly authentic.

 

If I want to fly straight as an arrow without touching anything I'll take the M2K or the Hornet. But I rarely fly those planes to be honest...


Edited by Zius

Modules: Bf 109, C-101, CE-II, F-5, Gazelle, Huey, Ka-50, Mi-8, MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21, Albatros, Viggen, Mirage 2000, Hornet, Yak-52, FC3

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You have a fundamental mistake in your perspective in all your points. Those are not modern jets, those are pretty much the first jets. Engine spool up is very slow which means it has very big throttle reaction lag, you need to anticipate for that and this makes trimming more tricky to do but definitely not as bad as you described. I have no problems trimming it for level flight, of course trim is not autopilot you can't trim for hands off flying in this old jets.

 

Another point is that those aircraft have very small swept wing high wing load, another reason why they are bouncy and not so stable.

 

On the other hand ww2 birds have almost no throttle lag and big straight wings, once trimmed, they are very stable.

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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I find both these planes extremely enjoyable to fly, and two of the most fun planes to dogfight in. Sure, you need to adjust the trim a lot, but otherwise they're not difficult in my opinion. And I don't use any curves at all (exept for the rudder for ground handling).

 

So I have to ask... are you sure that your control inputs are correctly set up? You know that the game sometimes doubles the axis inputs buy default, which causes really weird behavour.

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I can't tell whether a flight model is 'real' or not - but MiG-15 'feels' awesome. Just like it should, IMHO.

 

There are quirks, it can be jumpy, you need to watch the speed, you need to constantly fly it, yes, I get what you're saying. But those are things that you would expect from the actual plane and it's what makes it awesome.

 

About trimming, there is a sweet spot for MiG-15 that you can get it trimmed in level flight, just gotta make sure you're not going too fast. Trimmed well enough to take my hands of the stick to operate the radios etc atleast.

 

Anyway - not saying you are wrong in your opinion. People enjoy different things. But I don't think it's the flaw of the module in this case - maybe you just did a wrong choice based on your personal preference?

A-10C Warthog | AJS-37 Viggen | F-5E Tiger II | Mig-15bis | MiG-19P Farmer

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The F-86 is hands down my favorite module... I love the MiG-15 also and I find both of them to be a real joy to fly. Sounds to me like your not making good use of the trim. Hawk is ok and I use it mostly for sightseeing. I love all my DCS Modules and like you I prefer a "buggy" Hawk to no Hawk at all.

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I really enjoy both of these modules and don't seem to have the same issue you're experiencing. They are less stable but not to the degree I find it to be a problem. My only complaint is that AI aircraft use a different flight model and poor tactics. Either constantly turning or doing loops, not stalling when tlhey should etc. For that reason I either use it multiplayer or put it up against dissimilar aircraft. For example I'll make a mission where a third world contry uses them to attack US A-10s for violating there sovereignty and striking a terrorist camp without permission. Anyway if you get to the point where you can enjoy them check out the museum relic campaign.

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From what you say I think you have more a problem with your hardware than with the modules themselves, but you should have that problem with most of the modules as well. What kind of joystick are you using?

 

I haven't flown them for a while, specially Sabre, but MiG-15 is a joy to fly and an awesome module all the times I've flown it and I don't remember Sabre to be any different.

 

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Sabre has a fully moving stab, or floating elevator. It's impossible to fine tune trim in a plane that uses a full stab surface as trim and also has no computer or stab aug to help.

 

It's a real plane, as in you need to know how to fly an airplane to fly it. I hate the MiG-15, but I'm sure it is too. You trim it close, then you fly the damn thing. Not sure how you are flying it Zimmer, but I don't have a problem making the plane fly how I want it to, and I use an old ass CH Fighterstick USB HOTAS and CH Pro Pedals.

 

It doesn't stabilize to 1 G like an Eagle. It doesn't have a computer to help you. You fly it. It took me years to fly it like I thought I should be flying it, but even with that you still have to constantly pay attention and fly the thing. If you keep at it you'll be able to fly it like you think you should be able to, but not before that. As we say in the military: garbage in = garbage out. With that is the watered down experience of "flying" in DCS - it's a sim, so just like in real life you need to invest time into it to be, and remain, proficient. The other side is that no plane in here flies exactly like it does in real life. when you remember that is the case then you'll be happier. EX: I ran lifeboat sin the USCG for ten years. It wouldn't matter how realistic surf rescue sim was, you will never capture the real life feeling of handling a 50 year old lifeboat in 16ft-18ft breakers towing a heavy fishing boat.

 

There's nothing wrong with the how the plane flies in this sim. Practice up and come back here and apologize.

 

~Rob


Edited by Robert31178
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He was honest about his feelings and asked questions. I don't think he needs to apologize. But I can empathize with where he is coming from after flying a bit more lately. But I also know that my hardware IS part of the problem. My worn out HOTAS Cougar makes it difficult to fly well around the center point due to the worn out clunky gimbals, heavy stick, and spikey pots. This gets exaggerated when you start dogfighting at low speeds. The swept wing fighters get real unstable around these speeds. It can be very frustrating to lose roll authority or get pump and dump pitch because you are so slow. But that is what's happening. Advice to stay ahead and anticipate the aircraft is good. It take s practice and can be done. I am finding my landings go much smoother when I stay a little hot and don't flare as hard, just like the intro tells you to. ;) What I really want is some kick butt .50 cals that have a higher muzzle velocity than a 20mm cannon or .303 pea shooter. ;) Also, moving your camera point up in the cockpit helps in heavier g dogfights. Screw the pipper and watch your tracers. with a bit more room to see over the nose you can hose a MiG a bit better. It takes practice and you need to map the up and down buttons.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hey OP, I totally understand your post! I had the very same problems!!! Pitching and porpoising, can't get a shot off because of shitty bouncing around! Yes, I understand!!! This is what I did:

 

 

I had a crappy HOTAS system and upgraded to the Thrustmaster 16000M with throttle... It made a huge difference to my flights, not only in the Sabre and Mig-15, but also with the Harrier, it is the best bang for your buck as the controller for the stick is the same as the warthog, bit with a less expensive build. I also edited the control curves for the AXIS in the aircraft control menus and set my trim on the stick china hat. You can make them tone down the curves and make a more stable flight, adjust to taste.

 

 

I really hope this helps. I received the same responses from people not understanding these issues as they used their $800 warthog HOTAS systems.

 

 

I did feel your pain at one time! I really hope this helps you enjoy these aircraft more.

Also note that they are still not perfect but hugely better than before!


Edited by Harley Davidson
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Not going to help, but the F-86 flies well here.

 

There are a few quirks with the sim (not flight model) but otherwise is very enjoyable to fly.

 

As above, check your axis are only assigned once, and all others are CLEARED.

 

Add curves to all axis, and a dead-zone to rudder.

 

Keep the engine spooled above 70% on approach and minimum speed is 150 kts.

 

She's not easy to fly well, but good as long as you keep the speed in check, trim, and anticipate trim changes due to flaps and gear.

 

I think of it as a jet-powered Cessna.

Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port

"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.

The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts.

"An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot."

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  • 3 weeks later...

Both are hammer modules !!! Nothing wrong with them, just pure early jets. Get a Thrustmaster 16000 set or stick or something even better, no curves except rudder at arround 15 and you will get better every day.

 

Curves for pitch n roll just mess up your flying, get used to minimal stick inputs.

 

And forget about the perfect trim, trim like whats best for you. For the rest use your stick AND throttle.

The Mig is unable to trim nose down at higher speeds which sucks but it is what it is. At those speeds she gets mad and wants the airbrake anyway.

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There's nothing wrong with the how the plane flies in this sim. Practice up and come back here and apologize.

:thumbup: I have spent so many hours in the servers, Mig 15 vs Sabre, man vs man, killer instinct, no mercy, it took me a few minutes to evaluate the opponent’s talent. Those hours were gold.


Edited by Demon_

Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche.

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.... What I really want is some kick butt .50 cals that have a higher muzzle velocity than a 20mm cannon or .303 pea shooter. .....

 

I'm back to giving the Sabre some love.

 

Is there a good tweak for the .50 cal velocity?

 

Also, are any of the cockpit mods working with the newer OB release? They all appear very dated from their initial release. (Note, I fly only VR).

 

Would appreciate feedback on any cleaver mods for this bird.

MSI MAG Z790 Carbon, i9-13900k, NH-D15 cooler, 64 GB CL40 6000mhz RAM, MSI RTX4090, Yamaha 5.1 A/V Receiver, 4x 2TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe, 1x 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD, Win 11 Pro, TM Warthog, Virpil WarBRD, MFG Crosswinds, 43" Samsung 4K TV, 21.5 Acer VT touchscreen, TrackIR, Varjo Aero, Wheel Stand Pro Super Warthog, Phanteks Enthoo Pro2 Full Tower Case, Seasonic GX-1200 ATX3 PSU, PointCTRL, Buttkicker 2, K-51 Helicopter Collective Control

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Javelina, if you don't mind not playing online, get a good .lua editor like Notepad++

 

Edit your F-86.lua to have very little barrel heat. I use 0.001 * 1.0 across those stats.

 

Then find your shell_table.lua in your weapons folder under scripts/databases or some such... not at home right now. If you want I can email the files to you. PM me if you want. You want the M2_API and APIT round to have 900+ m/s v. Dont' worry about the other v numbers. Also edit your effective range out to 1200+ ... even 2000 is OK. Not sure if this is in F-86 or shell. Then also you want shell lifetime up to 8 or 9. It's way better. Check out real gun camera footage on YouTube.


Edited by Squiffy

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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Javelina, if you don't mind not playing online, get a good .lua editor like Notepad++

 

Edit your F-86.lua to have very little barrel heat. I use 0.001 * 1.0 across those stats.

 

Then find your shell_table.lua in your weapons folder under scripts/databases or some such... not at home right now. If you want I can email the files to you. PM me if you want. You want the M2_API and APIT round to have 900+ m/s v. Dont' worry about the other v numbers. Also edit your effective range out to 1200+ ... even 2000 is OK. Not sure if this is in F-86 or shell. Then also you want shell lifetime up to 8 or 9. It's way better. Check out real gun camera footage on YouTube.

 

 

Thanks! PM sent. :thumbup: (I do have Notepad++ as well)

 

 

edit - think I've found it all. but would appreciate looking at your files. thanks!


Edited by javelina1

MSI MAG Z790 Carbon, i9-13900k, NH-D15 cooler, 64 GB CL40 6000mhz RAM, MSI RTX4090, Yamaha 5.1 A/V Receiver, 4x 2TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe, 1x 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD, Win 11 Pro, TM Warthog, Virpil WarBRD, MFG Crosswinds, 43" Samsung 4K TV, 21.5 Acer VT touchscreen, TrackIR, Varjo Aero, Wheel Stand Pro Super Warthog, Phanteks Enthoo Pro2 Full Tower Case, Seasonic GX-1200 ATX3 PSU, PointCTRL, Buttkicker 2, K-51 Helicopter Collective Control

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Great! I could not attach files to PM. And my sent box goes empty right away. Not sure you got the PMs I sent.

 

We might want to adjust the barrel heat now that a few updates have come out. The last ones seemed to break my 50s. Now they jam wicked fast at altitude. They come back down low but I need to remember to switch on my gun heat before merge.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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At first I wasn't keen on the F-86F - but lately it's become one of my favourite rides. Just took me a bit to get used to setting up my controls and using the radar gun sight effectively (and it works really well!). I thought the .50s underpowered at first but now I think they are fine and as destructive as I could wish - but I think they have been tweaked recently. The manual for the F-86F is superbly well written and a pleasure to read.

The OP should maybe try the L39 (with excellent 'Kursant' training campaign) and/or C-101 to get an idea of how challenging flying a non-fly-by-wire aircraft is. I hesitate to suggest he try the P51 and/or Spit because taking off/landing them safely and consistently takes quite an effort, unless you have a real-life pilot for a friend to sit with you and talk you up and down (as I did - and he was VERY impressed with the Spit IX flight model). Both aircraft require constant trimming and stick control, and rudder use to avoid slipping in turns.

 

The MiG-15 I love to fly - easy take-off and landing, but problematic at high speed - the elevator trim does not have enough authority to hold the nose down at high speeds and you have to hold the stick forward to fly level. I have real trouble shooting with it - low velocity cannon rounds, slow roll-rate, and snakey handling at speed - but I hope to learn. I've had trouble with every realistic module at first - especially the non-fly-by-wire planes and helicopters. Realism is challenging.

 

Nick Grey - who has flown 5 marks of Spitfires amongst many other warbirds in real life says that none of them are hands-off flyers - they all require constant trimming and hands-on - like a helicopter. Pre-fly-by-wire fighter planes have always been designed to be nimble, which requires instability, which means constant pilot control. If you want stable aircraft then stick to fly-by-wire jets or multi-engine bombers.


Edited by fencible
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