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Old 01-11-2019, 02:01 PM   #21
GGTharos
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That's just a meaningless blanket statement jojo. There's no advantage if the bandit's 3000'-6000' off your 6. Maybe 12000', but even then.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:16 PM   #22
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The launch platform vs target speed differential and distance are the same for both missiles but the missile being fired OTS has to do a 180deg turn, so it can't possibly have an advantage unless it has a massive inherent kinematic advantage besides.
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:39 PM   #23
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Su-33 or 35 (I forget which) was supposed to have tube launched rearward firing Archers... Dunno if anyone ever showed that they were real or whether it was Intelligence telling us there was a bogeyman.

I do know for certain that 135degree off-boresight launches are within envelope using HMS
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:35 PM   #24
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oh yeah sure just like the fabled rear facing radar in the su-34 right?
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
That's just a meaningless blanket statement jojo. There's no advantage if the bandit's 3000'-6000' off your 6. Maybe 12000', but even then.
Yeah, I know, not US made = meaningless
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:00 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo View Post
Yeah, I know, not US made = meaningless
If you understand how it works, then why post it anyway?


Back to topic, even with a highly manoeverable missile, it still needs a turn circle and it needs to change it's vector from (aircraft speed) to 0 deg. (forward) to (missile speed) 180deg (backwards). These things take time, so the bandit most likely have the time to fire it's own missile, no matter how outdated, or use it's guns. And if the bandit has the common sense to switch off his radar, your missile still wouldn't have any guidance as it was mentioned that the missile would guided by RWR before acquiring the target in the missile gimbal (which is still only the forward hemisphere).


So in my opinion, maybe it's possible but it's not in any way practical. Although I guess it could be nice to have the possibility in some circumstances.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:05 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zius View Post
If you understand how it works, then why post it anyway?


Back to topic, even with a highly manoeverable missile, it still needs a turn circle and it needs to change it's vector from (aircraft speed) to 0 deg. (forward) to (missile speed) 180deg (backwards). These things take time, so the bandit most likely have the time to fire it's own missile, no matter how outdated, or use it's guns. And if the bandit has the common sense to switch off his radar, your missile still wouldn't have any guidance as it was mentioned that the missile would guided by RWR before acquiring the target in the missile gimbal (which is still only the forward hemisphere).


So in my opinion, maybe it's possible but it's not in any way practical. Although I guess it could be nice to have the possibility in some circumstances.
It's practical in a situation where there's just been a head-on pass. The HOBS+LOAL missile can be fired after the enemy jet just before of just after the pass. Now in a typical merge there would be an opportunity to fire well before this but between ROEs and dogfight chaos, the situation could be different.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:39 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emu View Post
The launch platform vs target speed differential and distance are the same for both missiles but the missile being fired OTS has to do a 180deg turn, so it can't possibly have an advantage unless it has a massive inherent kinematic advantage besides.

To be fair, the MICA does have impressive range for a dogfighting missile, at least from what I've read.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:21 PM   #29
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To be fair, the MICA does have impressive range for a dogfighting missile, at least from what I've read.
It does, but a missile does not gain a higher range advantage just from being fired OTS and some people are making a dodgy assumption that the pursuing pilot will just keep flying straight forward and won't have fired first. It's a useful capability to have in a multi-adversary fur-ball and a better alternative to thrust vectoring and Cobras (since it doesn't expend energy) but not one to be relied upon. The realistic advantage is more in HOBS and HMCS, which avoids having to put an adversary in a smack-bang 12 o'clock position on the HUD and can also give you an awareness of adversaries on a 360deg basis from 3rd party data comms and systems like EODAS. It would make Top Gun very boring though.

Last edited by Emu; 01-15-2019 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emu View Post
It does, but a missile does not gain a higher range advantage just from being fired OTS and some people are making a dodgy assumption that the pursuing pilot will just keep flying straight forward and won't have fired first. It's a useful capability to have in a multi-adversary fur-ball and a better alternative to thrust vectoring and Cobras (since it doesn't expend energy) but not one to be relied upon. The realistic advantage is more in HOBS and HMCS, which avoids having to put an adversary in a smack-bang 12 o'clock position on the HUD and can also give you an awareness of adversaries on a 360deg basis from 3rd party data comms and systems like EODAS. It would make Top Gun very boring though.

Oh yeah for sure, all I meant was that if for whatever reason you're going to try a fancy shot like that, out of modern missiles the MICA may be the best suited to it because of its kinematic performance.
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