Radio Callsigns in Navy Flights

So a flight gets a callsign from the ATO or frag, say, Springfield 11. But in the Navy there is also the squadron callsign, say for VF-103 with a 103 MODEX it is Victory 103, or if you are flight lead Victory 1.

So, when are these callsigns used? When would a flight call on the radio Springfield 11 and when would they say Victory 103? Listening to cockpit audio of the Gulf of Sidra II incident of 1989, VF-32 makes calls as Gypsy 107 while in 1981 VF-41 makes them as Fast Eagle. But nothing like Hammer 11, Colt 32, etc etc.

Anyone know how it's done?

v6,

boNes

It varies from country to country, and armed force branch to armed force branch and the context to context. There is no single way.

There's two things here; a Mission callsign, which can change according to a mission but can often be retained for squadrons for simplicity, and a planes registration number/tail number/modex which is full or abbreviated depending on context and sticks with the airframe.

USN generally use tail numbers more often than USAF. Each might use the context differently in ATC operations or military operations. Military operations tend to use a callsign when doing miltary things, but even then, I've heard them use tail numbers when used in a civilian context, ie an intercept of a civilian plane, the interceptor often refers to himself as his tail number when talking to civilians on Guard.

I've generally simplified it to that divisor - for ATC ops and civilian usage, use the Tail number. For a military only airport or, using a military radio frequency with a controller that is Military AND performing a mission - ie from the moment you are checked into AWACS, use the Mission callsign.

That's probably as clear as mud, I'm sorry, there will be a lot more to it than that, but for simplicities sake and until someone wants to go into the details, it will be enough for now! :)

EDIT: FWIW, using tail numbers in the Navy for their ATC boat operations doesnt sit well with me personally. There are only so many numbers you can hold onto in your head and if you begin radio messages with a tail number then mix in a BRAA or a relative bearing from MOTHER, without being very clean and proper on the radio, you are asking for a world of hurt because it can end up like listening to Bingo numbers ebing read out! I never understood why the USN chose Tail numbers that coincided with Bearings on a compass, if they have just started tails with the 400 series up, you would differentiate a tail and a bearing on bad comms a lot easier. However, I'm sure the USN will come back and reason this with "We do our comms properly, the Army had to differentiate because they are stupid" or some such inter-force rivalry banter, so, who cares, it's different, its what it is and it's somewhat pointless a debate in the end ;)

EDIT2: I missed that you specified Navy and infered USN in the title. The DCS method began with USAF and the A-10C and it wasn't until Hornet arrived they began to add the tail numbers. Even then, its a bit of a mismatch and as far as software should take it - things like Chief for the ground crew and other USAF/USN missing correct terminology. For the USN, I'm not sure, but I suspect they move from their tails to mission around the time they check into Strike, after the boat and then back after they check in to Marshall, but it's confusing and I dont have too many references.

Yes I was talking specifically about US Navy and USAF flights. Not sure what you refer to about tail numbers for the Navy though. The tail number in the USN is normally the last two digits of the nose MODEX number. ie, a Hornet whose number on the nose is 201 will have 01 on the tail normally whereas in the USAF the tail number is the airframe manufacture year ("AF96") and an alpha code for their base ("HO" Holloman) and I think a numeric for their wing/squadron. At least the USN isn't using their BuNo which is pretty much the equivalent of the USAF tail number but is a 6 digit number normally such as 163894 and is usually located on the engine nacelle by the nozzle. But in any case, on the radio they wouldn't say Lion 01 they would say Lion 201. Maybe they only do the Navy style callsigns when, like what oyu were saying, if it is an all-Navy comm. Such was the case in the Gulf of Sidra incidents, so there was no need for Dodge 11 but rather Fast Eagle 107 and Gypsy 202 or whatever.

Hmmm.

v6,

boNes

When talking to the boat for landing and admin purposes (in the pattern) the navy uses side number. I'm not 100% sure "why" the navy uses a different tactical and administrative callsign as well.

For example your squadron will usually have 1 or 2 administrative callsigns when talking to ATC, IE squadron X admin callsign is Hornet. Every flight that takes off from that squadron would be Hornet 11 flight, Hornet 21 flight etc...

This admin callsign is assigned/approved through the FAA/ whoever's airspace they are operating in and follows the phonetic and limited letter/syllable requirements of that (Phoenix is spelled FENIX for example)

Once they get out to the airspace and check in with AIC (AWACS/GCI/Whoever is controlling the flight) and are thus no longer talking to an administrative entity the navy then checks in with a tactical callsign, which can be whatever they want it to be. There are usually standard ones for each aircraft type in a package, but its on the aircrew/planners for any specifics.

So for example the Hornet 11 flight checks in with AIC with a tactical callsign of Lightning 11, and Hornet 21 flight checks in as Sniper 21 flight tactically.

When they leave the AIC they then revert to the admin callsign. On discrete they talk to eachother with tactical callsigns.

When talking to their Ops/ the carrier you then disregard all callsigns and talk with your side number.

USAF goes the much simpler route and usually each base has a whole roster of FAA approved callsigns, that then get parcelled out to the squadrons. IE squadron X has callsigns of Hornet, Sniper, and Lightning. Each flight then has one callsign and you never change your callsign or talk to any entity as anything but your callsign.

At a big place like nellis during a red flag usually there are standard callsigns owned by the base that get parcelled out to the units they are hosting IE all F-15C's during this red flag will fly under callsign CONAN or CYLON, etc...

IE from engine start to landing a USAF flight would be Hornet 11 flight to all agencies, the next flight would be Sniper 21 to all agencies, and the third flight would be Lightning 31 to all agencies.

Tail numbers would only be used if there was some confusion about which tail you were in (usually in relation to a jet breaking and having to hop to the spare)

Just to add a layer of complication, certainly in the UK callsigns can change several times during a single sortie.

For instance, I take off from RNAS Culdrose as "Whisky 25" on the local frequencies and get a call on VHF from the London Civil who are tracking me on SSR. To them I'm "Navy 525" and when they pass me on to the Coastguard for SAROPS I'm now "Rescue 25"

If we're on a combat flight then it'll be "Mission 25" instead, probably from the moment the radio gets turned on, though it might also be a randomly assigned mission word...

Caveat that this was a few years ago, and things may have changed.

What Klarsnow said is 100% spot on. To add to that, USAF fighter squadrons during peacetime (at least in CONUS) not only have callsigns assigned to each Sq - but then usually every flight lead has one of those callsigns assigned to him or her each time they lead a flight. For instance, Capt Jane Blow might be assigned the ATC callsign "Husky". Each time she leads a flight or is an IP for a flight lead upgrade flight, that flight would always use the callsign Husky. It might be Husky 11, 21, 31, 41, etc depending on where she was in the schedule. But everyone at the base would know that the Husky c/s belongs to Jane whenever they heard it on the radio. And an individual SQ might have 6-9 or more callsigns assigned to it to dole out to their flight leads. In addition, the SQ commander would usually always fly with the c/s of the SQ nickname if he/she were leading that flight that day. For instance, the SQ/CC callsign for the 336th Rocketeers or the 335th Chiefs at Seymour Johnson AFB would be "Rocket xx" or "Chief xx". I assume for the 77th FS (F-16s at Shaw AFB), the commander's c/s would be Gambler xx whenever he lead a flight.

In wartime ops, the callsigns are assigned via the ATO and typically (not always), each unit would have a discrete callsign or two. So for instance, if you heard "Snowbird" on the radio, you knew it was the Canadian F-18s.

To make it even more confusing, larger aircraft like AWACS might have a callsign for the up front flight crew in the cockpit would communicate on with ATC and a "backend" callsign where the mission crew would control the airspace i.e. "Darkstar".

In the USAF, tail numbers are never used on the radio except when talking to MX or the Ops desk. The maintenance guys only care about tail numbers, as that is how they track their jets status. So a pilot having a maintenance issue during startup would call on the maintenance net something like "Tail 69, redball flight controls".

In my limited experience flying with the Navy, they also use normal FAA approved callsigns when talking to both military and civilian shore based airfields. As Klar said, they use side numbers only when flying around the boat. And when they are in combat ops, they are also assigned tactical callsigns via the ATO just like everyone else on that ATO that they would use when they were not talking to the boat.