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Beta period complaining


SharpeXB

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Modules are released incomplete, get used to it, and accept it, or just hold off buying until they are complete.

That will be my choice from now on. And I'm not saying that to be negative or dismiss the efforts of these teams who do turn out some amazing quality in their work. I really appreciate DCS and the efforts of all these third party developers. I will buy every product they make, but only when it's finished. I'm actually of the opinion now that this philosophy is more helpful to the process which is really what I want to accomplish.

 

Not even I am going to argue the time frame (I love printing manuals so I get it)... they had some internal issues, so its a little easier for me to be forgiving as well. I get it, but on the other side of the coin its a pretty solid module no mater what tag is on it...

I don't mean to pick on the F-86 exactly. I using it as an example since it's the most egregious one I have records for personally.

Truth be told all the DCS modules seem to suffer from overly lengthy beta periods.


Edited by SharpeXB

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Strange, must've forgotten the coat since I'm finding myself back here ;) Sith, no-one's saying any different as regards the quality per se, because the choppers are indeed brilliant in their current state already. Regardless, EvilBivol said over 2 years ago that they're going to model what they omitted; and yet in the meantime, there's been no word from BST as to the progress made (or lack thereof). So is it really so odd that some of us like to remind of this every now and then?

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Someone mentioned this earlier and I think that it's a very valid comparison. I own both Xplane and FSX. When you purchase any A/C in either of these two sims, you are lucky to get a complete manual, much less a completed product. Most of the pay ware I purchased from them came with promises of updates and improvements yet not one of them has ever been brought up to the standard (or even close for that matter) that it's Dev promised. Not a one! Some of those planes went for $60 and their flight physics couldn't hold a candle to anything here. Not to mention that their textures and shapes are so boxy and unrealistic that it's hard to take them seriously. Any military planes, no functioning weapons. No missions, no training manuals, and 2/3 of the cockpits are inactive.

When they put out AC, they're not in beta, they're just incomplete.

DCS on it's worse day is ten times the sim that anyone else is putting out, anywhere. Other than silly things like misunderstandings about flight dynamics or how this or that works, there is very little to complain about in DCS. And it's rotocraft are unparalleled by anyone.

Anyone who thinks that they're being ripped off or that these planes aren't up to snuff.....go pay $80 for a cartoon sim, and then go purchase their incomplete AC that never get fixed. It cured me of ever thinking that DCS is substandard.

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The Huey manual still is not complete either, and it has been out far longer than anything else by BST.

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What really ruffles my feathers though, is that the ED store and Steam aren't upfront about which module is still WIP and which isn't. I wouldn't have bought the modules, if that information was given upfront and honestly. This lack of transparency about which modules are finished and which are still WIP is really bothering me, together with the lack of information about what content a module contains.

 

I have to take issue with this point Vincent90. Where a module is still beta it says so. Just beneath the title, at the top of every entry is says either "download version", or "download beta version".

 

It may not make it abundantly clear that the module is incomplete, I agree, but it cannot be said that it isn't clear which are beta and which aren't.

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Old news...common theme...beat a dead horse to death.

 

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Most software I have bought has had constant updates, was it sold as a 'beta' product ? Hell no, it was sold a s finished but may have some bugs or features not working.

 

They (ED and Partners) should stop being so honest and roll them out as finished but may need some updates. Come on people.. all software gets updates, some more than others and some are down right not finished and should never have been released in the state it was (Hawk) !

 

Mizzy

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Can anyone with authority state clearly what the definition of "Beta" is as it applies to DCS?

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  • ED Team
Can anyone with authority state clearly what the definition of "Beta" is as it applies to DCS?

 

For ED, its modules that are not feature complete. 3rd Parties would have to explain what constitutes beta for them. ED is moving to a early access term because the beta tag is confusing to many.

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The Huey manual still is not complete either, and it has been out far longer than anything else by BST.

Revising the manuals once they're released presents a big problem since afaik the changes are not indicated or highlighted. It makes reading the manuals for the Betas not a very good use of your time. It's one of the prime reasons that even though I might purchase the Beta versions I don't spend any time with them or attempt to read the manuals since I know they will just change. And I only have time to read them once.

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Revising the manuals once they're released presents a big problem since afaik the changes are not indicated or highlighted. It makes reading the manuals for the Betas not a very good use of your time. It's one of the prime reasons that even though I might purchase the Beta versions I don't spend any time with them or attempt to read the manuals since I know they will just change. And I only have time to read them once.

 

About these manuals...

 

If you think they're long to read, then you don't wanna know how long it takes to write them.

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  • ED Team
About these manuals...

 

If you think they're long to read, then you don't wanna know how long it takes to write them.

 

Yup, and you take even a company like ED, and it becomes a major task to put together, these smaller teams, I can only imagine.

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:wallbash:

About these manuals...

 

If you think they're long to read, then you don't wanna know how long it takes to write them.

I think it's not too much to ask that changes be highlighted.

Just imagine the Beta for the F-18 with it's 700 page manual.

Change Log:

"Update Manual" :wallbash:

 

It's normal practice for people who are in the business of writing voluminous technical documents (like flight manuals) to provide an indication of changes when publishing revisions.


Edited by SharpeXB

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However, and here is the rub... We have heard from so many people so many times about beta this and beta that, that the whole thing has been flogged to death, back to life, to death again, and for good measure, it has all been repeated ad nauseum!!!

 

 

Your posts can be found in almost every thread where someone starts complaining, and your responses are always the longest. You seem to enjoy beating that dead horse a lot :P

 

 

Dufay : ENG manual ? You want an English manual ? Seriously check :

:C/DCS World/Mods/Aircraft/F-86/Doc... And there is the english manual... There is also another english manual on the internet (PDF file)

 

Have you actually looked inside the file? It's still mostly in Russian, with some placeholders from the mig manual....

 

It's quite obvious that finishing the f-86 is not a high priority for Belsimtek, though the progress is being made and one can only hope that two year betas won't become a norm in DCS World. Fortunately, the more recent releases seem to progress at faster pace.

 

But yeah, what I hate the most in the beta releases are not the bugs themselves, but the lack of a proper documentation and training.


Edited by some1

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Personally, it was the lack of a manual that gave me the most pleasure with the MI-8. I guess it was that I was there at release from day one. The forums were superb and the simmers "in the know" shared their information and the rest of us interacted and learnt... it was great... I guess you could say an interactive live manual. All of us coming together on a subject that we loved and felt passion for.

Ultimately it was a "you had to be there" kind of thing. In the interim, all that exciting interactive learning process is gone, drowned in the repetitive questions and threads that have occurred since the release of the MI-8 and hence the need for a manual for all the late comers.

We still do not have a full English manual for the MI-8 and as a result I do not understand the minute details of the MI-8… but I can use it well enough to get the job done.

But again a full manual would serve me well.

 

As a side note: I will mention the Huey, belsimteks first release.

At release, the Huey was almost impossible to hover, It dropped into VRS instantly and it drove and cornered like a formula one car... man that bitch could corner. Quickly the model got sorted and it ended up being the superb Huey that we have now....

But as a result I was damaged goods with a serious and unhealthy fixation on light weight highly manoeuverable choppers.

I am now just as eager for a light weight as I am for a premier league attack chopper... go figure?

 

Is the Beta Bad?

Nope… not for me.. I love em!

 

As a further side note: with the current break neck updates to 1.5, 2.0 and additional weather models that are coming to DCS world.... I consider all Modules to be Beta.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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Well the good thing about having so many third party developers is competition. The ones who will succeed will be the ones who provide the best product in a reasonable time frame and with a complete set of features.

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well f86 is missing some content too, specifically Ordiance for air to ground. not just some training missions.

 

F86F should have the 750 pound M117 bomb that was introduced during korea war, and available for F86F bomb inventory during the time period and after the war.

 

it is missing them

 

67th_Fighter-Bomber_Squadron_North_American_F-86F-25-NH_Sabre_52-5506.jpg

 

ATM all it has is ww2 era Box fin an-m64 500 pound bomb.

 

 

See link to SAC sheet for armement reference which includes " new series bombs" 750 pound

 

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/usa/northamericanaviation/f-86sabre/f-86f-25-thru-40-sabre-standard-aircraft-characteristics.html

 

 

 

 

also it would be nice if BST actually gave the F86 the mk7 tactical nuke. id still rather see a "giant bomb" than no nuke at alll like the r24 & r28 on the mig21.

 

LABS system is pointless with conventional bombs.

 

imo f86 needs this content added too before it can truely be considered out of beta.


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Your posts can be found in almost every thread where someone starts complaining, and your responses are always the longest. You seem to enjoy beating that dead horse a lot :P

 

 

 

 

Have you actually looked inside the file? It's still mostly in Russian, with some placeholders from the mig manual....

 

It's quite obvious that finishing the f-86 is not a high priority for Belsimtek, though the progress is being made and one can only hope that two year betas won't become a norm in DCS World. Fortunately, the more recent releases seem to progress at faster pace.

 

But yeah, what I hate the most in the beta releases are not the bugs themselves, but the lack of a proper documentation and training.

 

Unlike the threads complaining about a lack of progress, my point is valid anyway. Why do I always jump on it? Because I am SICK of hearing it over and over. If people are sick of me saying things, then the solution is simple... Get it?

 

As for the manual. Look here for progress...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=160243

 

Now, shall we just let Belsimtek get on with it and stop going over and over and over about these utterly worthless, nauseatingly fruitless complaints?

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Look I don't agree with all the complaints about betas and lack of progress either but, all your obnoxious wall of text posts are probably worse. People are entitled to their opinions and to converse. Saying effectively that because you disagree you're going to drone on like a high school essay for each one is basically admitting to trolling.

 

You admit there is no conversation with you and you're intention is to annoy people until they get in line with your thinking....

 

If anyone there was ever a mod should warn and ban...

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Look I don't agree with all the complaints about betas and lack of progress either but, all your obnoxious wall of text posts are probably worse. People are entitled to their opinions and to converse. Saying effectively that because you disagree you're going to drone on like a high school essay for each one is basically admitting to trolling.

 

You admit there is no conversation with you and you're intention is to annoy people until they get in line with your thinking....

 

If anyone there was ever a mod should warn and ban...

 

I think you have the wrong end of the argument here. I respond to unwarranted complaints, nothing more. If it was said once, fine. If it was said just twice, OK. If it is repeated ad-nauseum with no justification whatsoever, then I will respond, and say exactly what I think. To suggest that I am in the wrong rather misses the point don't you think?

 

Look at the facts. Firstly, no one that has ever purchased a Beta product has any right to complain about deadlines being missed because there are never any specified. You have not purchased a completed module.

 

Secondly, to suggest that there is no progress, and that by raising the matter you'll get the producers to start work on them again you are adding nothing that hasn't already been said, and it is simply going to be ignored. The work is ongoing anyway.

 

Also, the OP didn't even mention what was in his eyes missing from the module, only that it was a Beta, and ought to be completed.

 

Finally, I take HUGE issue with your final comment. If you have a complaint about me, then make it in private, directly to a moderator. It is very poor practice to start pointing fingers in public, especially when they have absolutely no foundation. Firstly because it is merely your opinion, and has absolutely no bearing on the rules - which haven't been broken by any of my responses. If they had, I'm sure the moderators would have been issuing warnings, and they never have - strange huh? And secondly, I do actually have a point when I respond. There is no justification for the original complaint, and there is every justification for taking people to task over them.

 

Or are you just complaining because I am right?

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