** F-14 Development Update: December 2018 **

I always keep partying internally when I see people complain about the state of the M2kC or the Harrier, RAZBAM in general, early access and such and then just see that they're running an OS which is in a very early pre-alpha state at best. I'm running Windows 10 on my backup rig and all I can say is that this is by far the worst iteration of MS Windows I've ever had, starting out with 3.11 and I even played on the crashy ME. I dare to say even the VEAO Hawk was a piece of software that had less problems and more completeness than that patchwork (P)OS that never gets finished even in a decade...

Ok cool. Ftr I’ve bought every combat plane that’s come out since I’ve been involved in DCS during pre-sale, as I personally view it as a kickstarter-type of thing. I haven’t complained at any point and I don’t intend to start. Also, just to be clear, I was saying Heatblur and ED have done this in an exemplary way.

 

Still, I’d like to clarify whether I have understood you correctly, but after that I’ll let it drop regardless...

 

Are you agreeing that the customer doesn’t necessarily know what they will initially receive when they consider whether to buy a module in EA?

I do the same thing. Hell I bought duplicate models because I wanted to test VR with multi-user. I've bought every DLC/plane/choppers except for the MiGs.

And to me, it's just like Kickstarter. I want DCS and partners to succeed and so I'm voting with my $$.

Sure folks got screwed with WWII KS (which I also supported) and ED had to bail them out.

Again, I just don't understand the fuss about early access. Just don't buy it if you don't believe in the model. Wait until it's done. If that takes two years, so be it.

The steady progress of FA18 tells you that it's a workable model. VEAO absolutely screwed their paid customers, but it's life. It happens.

Early Access is hurtfull for the industry and players alike. Devs have no incentive to complete their product becuse hey... they've already made the sales as if the product is completed. EA is selling promises. I don't understand people applauding new aircraft form a studio when they haven't came close to fiishing their last project... but I guess grass is always greener... Telling people "then don't buy it" is being blind to what goes on in the industry as a whole. One thing I agree - EA and pre-order is like kickstarter and saying that I also think that it is really hard to resist starting another fresh project and making money insted of finishing something that has already been paid for...

Thanks for the info!

Great to hear its around the corner.

Meanwhile i am learning how to startup the Tomcat.

Really love the interaction with the RIO when getting the bird alive (from Charly Owl on Mudspike).

S!

Hmm, I was just thinking... do people still pay tickets to concerts months or year in advance? Willingly accepting the risk the artist cancels the show, or it moves to another date/year?

Or buy cinema tickets online, before going to the cinema and usually not knowing how good or bad (to their liking) the movie actually will be?

Some may have pre-ordered furniture, hoping for a timely delivery and some may have been disappointed by delays or even getting the wrong screwed up arrangement?

It is not that uncommon or unheard of, to pay things in advance (e-bay anyone?) and we accept certain risks coming along.

If the only risk is to need to wait and I am confident I'll get a product to my liking (aka trust the developer/vendor) I have no problem with "early access" at all. In whatever form it shows up. Be it an e-bay auction, an F-14B Tomcat, a Pizza, or a movie ticket.

Early Access is hurtfull for the industry and players alike. Devs have no incentive to complete their product becuse hey... they've already made the sales as if the product is completed. EA is selling promises. I don't understand people applauding new aircraft form a studio when they haven't came close to fiishing their last project... but I guess grass is always greener... Telling people "then don't buy it" is being blind to what goes on in the industry as a whole. One thing I agree - EA and pre-order is like kickstarter and saying that I also think that it is really hard to resist starting another fresh project and making money insted of finishing something that has already been paid for...

With some developers and companies this could be accurate I suppose, but with ED/DCS, with the exception of the Hawk, which wasn't EDs fault IMO, it just hasn't been demonstrably the case IMO. I mean look at the Hornet module. Just check the list of changelogs/updates since it was released on day 1 of early access. There has been an absolute PILE of continual updates, additions, and improvements. ED/DCS/Devs here have been getting better IMO in terms of how rapidly they are pumping this stuff out.

I think your opinion is a bit too negative in ED's case, just my opinion though, and again, there are game developers out there who are absolutely guilty of this.

I choose to support Heatblur with early access purchases, but nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head here...it's a risk sure (an extremely small one for not a large sum of $ IMO), but for that you're rewarded with a discount - I'm also confident they'll finish what they've started, and man, from the vids out there, have they ever started something great.

Hmm, I was just thinking... do people still pay tickets to concerts months or year in advance? Willingly accepting the risk the artist cancels the show, or it moves to another date/year?

Or buy cinema tickets online, before going to the cinema and usually not knowing how good or bad (to their liking) the movie actually will be?

Some may have pre-ordered furniture, hoping for a timely delivery and some may have been disappointed by delays or even getting the wrong screwed up arrangement?

It is not that uncommon or unheard of, to pay things in advance (e-bay anyone?) and we accept certain risks coming along.

If the only risk is to need to wait and I am confident I'll get a product to my liking (aka trust the developer/vendor) I have no problem with "early access" at all. In whatever form it shows up. Be it an e-bay auction, an F-14B Tomcat, a Pizza, or a movie ticket.

You've described a pre-purchase only, not early access.

With pre-purchase you're paying in advance for a known product to be delivered on a certain date. The 'contract' if you will, is generally quite clear. While not completely risk free, you usually have recorse if the contract is breached.

Paying for a product and receiving an incomplete version up front with the rest to follow later is early access. The risk is higher at the moment, as product completion levels and delivery dates are not well defined, and this is where the problem comes.

This conversation is ridiculous. Some EXTREMELY entitled millennial's on here.

This conversation is ridiculous. Some EXTREMELY entitled millennial's on here.

Tell me more about how you can read the year someone was born out of his forum posts :doh:

You've described a pre-purchase only, not early access.

 

With pre-purchase you're paying in advance for a known product to be delivered on a certain date. The 'contract' if you will, is generally quite clear. While not completely risk free, you usually have recorse if the contract is breached.

 

Paying for a product and receiving an incomplete version up front with the rest to follow later is early access. The risk is higher at the moment, as product completion levels and delivery dates are not well defined, and this is where the problem comes.

And people actually did Pre-Order(!) the product with the additional benefit of Early Access.

The Heatblur shop says clearly "Pre-Order" and ED store says "Pre-Sell"...

Tell me more about how you can read the year someone was born out of his forum posts :doh:

It's an inference based on how some of these folks are acting. :doh:

Did my hand holding you through my comment help your comprehension?:doh:

I shutter to think of all the time I would have missed out on getting to know the Hornet if, even now, it wouldn't be anywhere near release if it wasn't in EA. And that's where we'd be. A Hornet that could still be at least a year away from actual release if it wasn't in EA. I'm sorry, but I'm actually aging, and I'd like to be able to play some modules before I'm dead or my body no longer can comfortably play the game. So I'm thrilled that the Hornet came out, and that we continue to see updates and new features added on a regular basis. I hope ED continues the trend with the F-16.

That isn't to say I disagree with HB's approach either, per say. But I wouldn't want it to be the norm for everyone because not every developer is up to their standards. We may have to wait 5 years for a HB module, but we know when it comes out, it'll have that level of quality no one else seems to be able to match. Do I want to wait 5 years for a Mirage 2000 that, while good, will never be on the level of the Viggen or Tomcat in terms of fidelity? No, I don't really. If it's releasable at 80% from a developer that can only get it to about 90%, I'd rather they do that and continue to improve it than tack on another 2-3 years just to get to 90. HB gets you much closer to that 95-99% threshold. They've earned the respect and patience to be given the extra time, no matter how painful that wait can be. But if every dev did this, we'd have less than half the modules we have now, and probably less devs working on DCS as a whole, because they couldn't wait 5 years between new aircraft sales.

At this point with the developers and third party people so far, we know which ones are trustworthy and which ones aren't. And I'm fine with those who don't want to participate in EA. But *some* (and only some) of those people also want to make sure others can't participate in EA by pressuring developers not to use early access for those who want it, even if they do it responsibly (as I feel ED has done with the Hornet so far). And that's where I have trouble.

This conversation is ridiculous. Some EXTREMELY entitled millennial's on here.

Please don't reduce this conversation to insults. While these conversations can degenerate into a who's who of entitiled idiots, there's value in discussing this topic while it remains constructive/civil. The better the boundaries/expectations of early access are defined, the better for all.

Sounds like a movie or concert to me (thinking of "SW Episode VIII The last Jedi") with no idea what the product will "look" like before actually watching it... With the concert at risk of being moved and or canceled... Heatblur offered the same refund to customers if they feel unhappy with the date...

No sorry that's not right. Your ticket pays for your access to see the movie; it does not and cannot ensure your enjoyment of the movie.

And people actually did Pre-Order(!) the product with the additional benefit of Early Access.

The Heatblur shop says clearly "Pre-Order" and ED store says "Pre-Sell"...

Sure, you can pre-order/sell an early access product, but those are still two seperate things.

This conversation is ridiculous. Some EXTREMELY entitled millennial's on here.

your post sir is ridiculous on its own terms

Seems I have struck a cord with some of them...

Seems I have struck a cord with some of them...

Nah you're spoiling for a fight and someone took the bait, it doesn't count.

I've generally found you to be very constructive, so please stay that way and don't become that guy!

Nah you're spoiling for a fight and someone took the bait, it doesn't count.

 

I've generally found you to be very constructive, so please stay that way and don't become that guy!

Sorry, cranky today. Got like 1/2 of freezing rain, 8+ inches of snow, then more freezing rain last night into this morning. Bad drive into work.

I will see myself out.

Nah you're spoiling for a fight and someone took the bait, it doesn't count.

 

 

 

I've generally found you to be very constructive, so please stay that way and don't become that guy!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

“Horns/EDIT: I should have asked: Are you agreeing that the customer doesn’t necessarily know what they will initially receive beyond the short description of EA on the E-shop when they consider whether to buy a module in EA?”

I certainly cannot determine what every customer understands or believes on these forums. If early access is an option for us to play a module in its early state as explained in the EA, then why are some determined to not make this concept work for them, while others are? I can tell you this; I am excepting of the value, risk and complexities involved in early access, some may not. I have given the responsibility to myself and only myself which determines whether I purchase anything from ED or anyone else. I feel that ED has done their part explaining the given opportunity of playing early incomplete modules with bugs, scope and technical challenges moving forward. The real F-18C took 6-8 years to develop with a cost of $70 mil per unit, while ED’s early access almost identical software version has taken 3-5 years to develop with a purchase price of $80.00, not including pre-sales… I’m willing to experiment with this new idea and business model of early access and trust that ED and company will do their best to deliver and make them work. Go with the understanding that early access will not work for everyone, but for many the idea of getting their hands on an early access module is nirvana, thus benefiting both the customer and seller.

Please don't reduce this conversation to insults. While these conversations can degenerate into a who's who of entitiled idiots, there's value in discussing this topic while it remains constructive/civil. The better the boundaries/expectations of early access are defined, the better for all.

 

 

 

No sorry that's not right. Your ticket pays for your access to see the movie; it does not and cannot ensure your enjoyment of the movie.

 

 

 

Sure, you can pre-order/sell an early access product, but those are still two seperate things.

The difference is, you pay for the finished product and you are not forced to use it during the early access phase. You have the option (!) if you like and/or want to lay your hands on it in an unfinished state.

If you decide not to participate in the early access phase, you still have pre-ordered and bought the final product.

Early Access is hurtfull for the industry and players alike. [...] EA and pre-order is like kickstarter and saying that I also think that it is really hard to resist starting another fresh project and making money insted of finishing something that has already been paid for...

Actually, this is just how business and economy work. You've got an idea, try to make up your business plan, go to the bank to get the funds and then you try not to fail. But if you do so, and you're not 100% responsible for your outcome alone, have a good night - if it runs well, you'll eventually get the chance to pay up your debt before actually having reached something for yourself in terms of cash. Not everyone is born with a million dollars on his bank account and this is how it goes for probably at least 98% of the brave ones who try to found a company. Economy without debt is utopia³. I try to live without, and I try hard - it's almost impossible.

The other point is that you're getting an unfinished product, but you know that already and in many cases, you pay less in cash, but more in time and they take your feedback to improve things. Basically you're a alpha/beta tester, but something like second level. If you have fun doing that testing and, in case of DCS, want to learn the modules as early as possible, this is a good choice. If you hate life (=have to deal with things that don't work all the time), you better wait until like 5 years after the official release

Can't wait for release so this silly thread can die it natural death.

Can't wait for release so this silly thread can die it natural death.

I feel the same way.

I feel the same way.

Lol :)

Not exactly, you pay for the finished product, as advertised. The fact that you pre-order, gives you an additional benefit that is commonly known as "Early Access", the option to try the product in its development, with limited functionality. Sometimes this includes the option for customer feedback to optimize the final product.

The difference is, you pay for the finished product and you are not forced to use it during the early access phase. You have the option (!) if you like and/or want to lay your hands on it in an unfinished state.

If you decide not to participate in the early access phase, you still have pre-ordered and bought the final product.

No.

Pre-order = pay now delivery later.

Early access = initial delivery will not be feature complete.

You can buy an early access product, pre-order a product, or you can pre-order an early access product. They are totally mutually exclusive.

Pre-order is generally fine, it's the early access bit that causes controversy because it's much harder to define what you'll be getting and when.