Case I Speed Management in Break/Downwind

Oh yeah, the good ol' "military landing". I'll grab some pop corn

Grab an english language course book .. might help

We all knew you were talking about the shit hot break. However your terminology is off. I don;t think military landing is a thing. And while eventually all rw operators learn and perfect a sh break, you'd be hard pressed to find one who would call Natops-abiding pilots p*ssies.

By the way a shb is still Case I. It's just a technique used to break the deck.

Technically a SH break is not formally taught (it’s more “gouge” between pilots than anything else). It is never required to be performed. It definitely shouldn’t be performed by a nonproficient pilot. There are pilots who have gone their whole careers electing not to perform a SH, with no regrets.

But damn do they look good and they’re fun too. :)

Sorry for the threadjack. Agree with your points.

Edit: SHB conversation was in reference to Navy carrier fast jet pilots.

We all knew you were talking about the shit hot break.

'We' did not,

did you now.

So why say that,

I'd say, SHB is not allowed 'in general', is it now, its not NATOPs, on a carrier, it's still performed though, is it now, on land side I'd call it a military landing. What do you think you're doing (not a SHB).

'We' did not,

did you now.

So why say that,

I'd say, SHB is not allowed 'in general', is it now, its not NATOPs, on a carrier, it's still performed though, is it now, on land side I'd call it a military landing. What do you think you're doing (not a SHB).

As I understand it, the SHB is nothing more than a case I pattern pushed to the limits "to look cool". There are small tweaks and tricks such as coming 30 degrees off the stern/BRC to get some more room to slow down, but it's nothing more than a case I.

Further, I suspect (although I can't speak with authority) that the Air Boss would be less than happy with SHB during cyclic combat ops. The stack, break points, spin cycles, etc are an elegantly rehearsed and optimized way of getting aircraft down at minimum intervals. An SHB doesn't necessarily mean this has to be disrupted, but all your "gouge" references to maintain intervals in the pattern will be off and your chances of sending flight spinning and dragging out a recovery cycle are increased.

Using a dictionary as you suggest, military landing is just any military aircraft returning to terra firma. For fixed wing tactical jets, this is traditionally the overhead break. But for heavy cargo aircraft in a heavy small arms/MANPAD environment, this will be a spiraling high speed dive from directly overhead at high altitude. For rotary wing aircraft inserting boots on an LZ, this is a high speed straight in approach. For small forces/SOAR, there can be leap frog drops.

The SHB may look cool, but is by no means a universal landing method, or even encouraged at any particular time. And for some aircraft that are still very "military", not even reasonably possible.

You’re more likely to see a SHB in cyclic ops than CQ by far. CQ is when guys are going to the boat for the first time, or returning to the boat after being away from sea for a while. Nobody is really proficient. I have maybe seen only a few SHB in CQ.

Contrast that with cyclic ops when pilots have gotten into a routine and have a bunch of recent experience, they’re more inclined to do it. Typically it’ll be the first guy down that has the only opportunity, but once in a while a gap will be in the pattern when somebody else has a chance. Often, the recovery tanker has a chance himself at the end of a recovery. The Air Boss won’t have a thought on the matter, so long as the SHB wasn’t screwed up.

The Air Boss won’t have a thought on the matter, so long as the SHB wasn’t screwed up.

the Air Boss will say something, or otherwise the real boss, no doubt, and land based will welcome you on your next flight out.

It's akin social darwinism in a self inflicted pecking order, for which the US military apparently attempts to be a sample of.

If you don't have a taste for that, I have a saucer with luke warm milk here to comfort your thin self reflections.

If you don't have a taste for that, I have a saucer with luke warm milk here to comfort your thin self reflections.

LOL

There comes a point in some discussions where the only way to save any face is to remain quiet from that point on.

You have officially passed that point.

It's akin social darwinism in a self inflicted pecking order, for which the US military apparently attempts to be a sample of.

 

If you don't have a taste for that, I have a saucer with luke warm milk here to comfort your thin self reflections.

I think you over analyze this... If I was an air boss and there was a way to cut down on recovery time in combat conditions... as long as I know the group is proficient I'd let the first section/group to come in at 600 kts to "break" the deck and then... everyone behind come in at normal speed and do fan breaks over the bow but... if they screw up just that much... (bold headed fatso with big cigar... you know the rest:D)

save any face

pfffffffffff

The only ones not obligated to save any face about a DCS game that can only depict a bleak picture of what is really going on, are types perhaps like our DCS guest star pilot C.W. Lemoine who then again succinctly pointed out that real operational guns are not allowed on public fora like this, thus their opinions, if they have one, never heard,

or like him, are rewarded with a very cold shoulder indeed by ‘the clan’, meaning ending their active flying career if found doing that (to even his surprise apparently).

Any type of the blowhard that are left who think they might impose on us here a vicarious spec of military stardust referencing towards some vague clan relationship through erroneous vernacular, can be served a saucer of lukewarm milk for his trouble, for that’s their ranking scale I would think.

BTW a USA military that insists on having a DCS employee arrested abroad, in Georgia - the nation in the Caucasus - and have him then odiously renditioned to a federal jail in Utah for having obtained old American flight manuals, because he is ‘Russian’, somehow that does ring the bell of the pussy as well. Isn’t it.

I’m wondering if anyone has any tips to get on speed quicker in the case I pattern.

 

I fly the break at 350 kts/800 ft breaking at 1.0 NM DME. I pull just a bit under 1% G’s, finding this puts me from 0.1-0.2 NM off the starboard side at the break to 1.1-1.2 NM on downwind. Pull straight 1% G would bleed a bit more speed, but I end up to close abeam. I drop the gear at 240 kts for drag and have messed with flaps to full at 210 kts and fight the nose up or to full at 180 kts and trim.

 

I find doing all this I’m at 600’ seeing the rundown at about 145kts. Almost on speed, but it’s already time to turn if I’m going to hit my groove time. But I haven’t been able to fine tune my trim at all. I have it pretty patterned that it’s a “3 second count” of up trim to on speed trim. But this isn’t perfect and needs a little fine tuning. This leaves me still tuning trim in the base turn.

 

So any thoughts on how to slow down quicker? Is there much consideration for speedbrake usage in the break in real life?

 

I know I can break past one mile, but if you’re a flight of four coming out of the stack, someone has to break early to get everyone r in the pattern with 4 NM. I’m trying to polish it up so I can be adept at the shorter.

Yes,

Use the speed brake, this is how it's done.

It's to slow you down so you can drop the gear and flaps halfway through-ish the brake turn.

I even add a few seconds trim up in the turn once the gear is down, almost come out on speed.

Easy to see it then explain it sometimes. You see me also drop the wing more or less to control the height in "level brake" 800 feet through the turn. Helps control the nose, easier then controlling it once wings level in the downwind if fast out of the brake.

Edit: You don't trim for on speed in the turn, it's designed around you being wings level. (Downwind) Then do not change the trim when in the final turn because it will be out once level again.

Trim in the downwind then leave it..

You only re trim for on speed if you bolter, touch and go etc. You then re trim when wings level on the downwind because your weight would have changed (less fuel)

Edit: You don't trim for on speed in the turn, it's designed around you being wings level. (Downwind) Then do not change the trim when in the final turn because it will be out once level again.

Trim in the downwind then leave it..

You only re trim for on speed if you bolter, touch and go etc. You then re trim when wings level on the downwind because your weight would have changed (less fuel)

After a certain amount of self-training, you can trim whilst banking towards on-speed, and certain RL YT carrier patterns show the pilot doing that.

A '3-second pull the thumb' can work, but could actually be very wrong also (because the FCS is trimming all the time in banking G's).

Because you know your ballpark weight and thus know the ballpark of your 'on speed',

by carefully observing the movement of the bracket dancing around the VV (and also keeping an eye on the actual nose AOA 'W') whilst banking in the turn, and you actually trimming,

you can figure out what the on speed of-the-day is and be right on the dot.

according to Jabbers, on downwind, at 5 miles zoom on HSI, your left aircraft symbol wingtip should touch the course line running through the TACAN channel at BRC course, with you, flying downwind. The 45 turn begins when you start to see the full RUNDOWN (that is the aft part of the landing deck sloping down towards the stern of the ship, marked by a white surface). If you can see the slope, on the rundown, you simultaneously add power and a 30 degree bank to the 90 degree position and a -300/400 fpm sink rate. once past the ships wake, you quickly glance to check your alignment to the runway, point the nose to the crotch, then increase sink rate to -400/500 fpm. It happens automatically with practice.

for the break, because of the oscillations caused by flaps nose up attitude, trim heavily nose down and hold stick. as flaps are deployed I turn to 600 ft and kill all power then trim nose up to get the FPM on the bracket, gradually adding power. Sometimes I climb a little while doing so, and sometimes, I reach 800-ish ft when I am out of shape. It is very important to index the radalt as your source for reading altitude before the brake.

Second that, speedbrake. Drop flaps/gear at 250kts while being in the turn, you won't get any "ballooning"/nose up that way.

 

I usually break between 0.7/0.8 miles, speedbrake and 1% G turn, by the time I come out of turn I am usually trimmed and on speed.

Thank you sir! Now that I'm practicing this, my CASE I patterns are all smooth and on time.