shagrat Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Quite honestly, this can't be that big of a deal. We're racing close to each other in racing sims with only centimeters between the cars online and it is working out. Flipping switches in a flight sim just can't be that big of a deal. The only (and main) issue is what happens if you have opposing inputs on the same function, but that can be circumvented e.g. by defining master controls and slave controls (possibly differently for different parts in the cockpit) + corresponding notification if a mismatch occurs.For starters, add a world simulation of a 350*350 NM area outside the racetrack, with two regiments of armor fighting each other, add ballistic calculations and collision query for all objects including bullets flying around and see how that works out... Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berniyh Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 For starters, add a world simulation of a 350*350 NM area outside the racetrack, with two regiments of armor fighting each other, add ballistic calculations and collision query for all objects including bullets flying around and see how that works out... All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the problem at hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the problem at hands.The server needs to handle and sync that in parallel between the clients, so that is clogging the network bandwidth. A dozen cars on a racetrack with basically two to three axis and a handful switches to sync isn't really a good comparison... Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chief Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 The server needs to handle and sync that in parallel between the clients, so that is clogging the network bandwidth. A dozen cars on a racetrack with basically two to three axis and a handful switches to sync isn't really a good comparison... It's called making the connection between the two pilots sharing the cockpit peer to peer. They do it in P3d using vatsim and that dwarfs the 350 by 350 NM map we are in. Also try having 50+ other aircraft within 5 NM of your aircraft not to mention the other 1000+ on the network. So... It can easily be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert31178 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Chief and Bern......I mean, you could always write the code for ED/BST yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) So... It can easily be done Yep, definitely. I am positive ED is not implementing it on purpose. It is just a 3 hours task, but they simply love this discussions too much, to just do it... Maybe you can quickly show it in a Mod, just in case ED does not know how "easily" it can be done... EDIT: ...and peer to peer does not reduce the traffic from the server to the client, with the rest of the world syncing to each client what to show around him. I have also elaborated already, why latency ( in a peer to peer connection, that is how it actually is done already) still causes problems, with lag and inconsistency. Edited November 2, 2018 by shagrat Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 An update on the development status of multicrewing for the Huey would be really appreciated though, as the last one is now almost a year old and there they said it should only take a couple of months untill the feature goes live: Hi guys! Multicrew was one of the topics we wanted to roll out as news article, but since you are active here recently, we will address it here. First of all we want to say that we don't want to run from what we said. Multicrew will be done and its progressing. Yes it taking its time and we can only be grateful for your patience! Things with helicopter multicrew are not exactly same as in, for instance, L-39. It is because L-39 have two separate cockpits, therefore two clients have each their own accessible controls to fiddle with. But its changing when you have two guys at the same cockpit and both of them have access to whole cockpit, things are getting tricky that way and we tried to dance around those issues we faced. And as solution so far we see separation of available commands for pilot and co-pilot with which we are working right now. As of now we have implementation for multicrew and we are testing it and resolving surfaced issues. Testing process taking its toll, it should go through different testers ours and ED.. At this point we think its a matter of months until multicrew patch for Huey will go live, if no critical showstopper issues will appear. Besides that, there is more changes for UH-1H, that are coming even sooner... You will hear about them soon.. So, what's going on? Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berniyh Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 The server needs to handle and sync that in parallel between the clients, so that is clogging the network bandwidth. A dozen cars on a racetrack with basically two to three axis and a handful switches to sync isn't really a good comparison... This sort of thing takes next to no bandwidth at all, since you only need to send something over the network if something on either side changes, which quite frankly is not very often (in comparison to everything you noted). The only thing that could be bandwidth-heavy are the actual axis controls (since those change their state permanently), but that was not what was discussed in the post that I quoted. And actually sync between the axis controls only makes sence for axis with force feedback, otherwise you have to separate them anyway (and switch on command). FFB is a valid use case, but I think most people would be ok with the first version not implementing control sync via FFB. Chief and Bern......I mean, you could always write the code for ED/BST yourself? What are you trying to accomplish? Just silence the discussion? Of course I can't write it myself, because I don't have the current code at my hands. But that's not the point. I was quoting a post by shagrat that didn't talk about code specifics (most likely because he hasn't seen it either) and just was commenting on that in general that it should not be an issue. shagrat talks about this as if DCS were the first game that allows people to play things on the internet, which … well we all know that it's not. Don't get me wrong. Multiplayer over the internet is a huge task and there are significant challenges, some of which are unique to flight sims. But syncing buttons is not a huge task. Even for 500 buttons, we're talking about a few kB/s at maximum if you do it in the very unefficient way to send everything all the time. If you do it efficiently (event based, so only an event for a specific button if the state changed) it's less and non-continuous. If there are setbacks on this topic (which seems to be the case), I seriously doubt they are related to this, but rather that there are other signiificant issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleEye Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 An update on the development status of multicrewing for the Huey would be really appreciated though, as the last one is now almost a year old and there they said it should only take a couple of months untill the feature goes live: So, what's going on? Yeah, thats the thing I dont like about (former) Belsimtek. After that post from belsimtek I thought communication about their modules would go uphill, it doesnt.:cry: Deutsche DCS-Flughandbücher SYSSpecs: i7-4790K @4GHz|GA-Z97X-SLI|16GB RAM|ASUS GTX1070|Win10 64bit|TrackIR5|TM Warthog/Saitek Pro Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogonaut Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 bumped ! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) This sort of thing takes next to no bandwidth at all, since you only need to send something over the network if something on either side changes, which quite frankly is not very often (in comparison to everything you noted). The only thing that could be bandwidth-heavy are the actual axis controls (since those change their state permanently), but that was not what was discussed in the post that I quoted. And actually sync between the axis controls only makes sence for axis with force feedback, otherwise you have to separate them anyway (and switch on command). FFB is a valid use case, but I think most people would be ok with the first version not implementing control sync via FFB. What are you trying to accomplish? Just silence the discussion? Of course I can't write it myself, because I don't have the current code at my hands. But that's not the point. I was quoting a post by shagrat that didn't talk about code specifics (most likely because he hasn't seen it either) and just was commenting on that in general that it should not be an issue. shagrat talks about this as if DCS were the first game that allows people to play things on the internet, which … well we all know that it's not. Don't get me wrong. Multiplayer over the internet is a huge task and there are significant challenges, some of which are unique to flight sims. But syncing buttons is not a huge task. Even for 500 buttons, we're talking about a few kB/s at maximum if you do it in the very unefficient way to send everything all the time. If you do it efficiently (event based, so only an event for a specific button if the state changed) it's less and non-continuous. If there are setbacks on this topic (which seems to be the case), I seriously doubt they are related to this, but rather that there are other signiificant issues.I explained in this thread, why it isn't just "syncing", as in a helicopter button states and for example concurring switch positions plus latency need to be tied into the systems modeling on the PC that calculates the internal systems, adding a tournaround latency of double the ping, axis have issues... etc., etc. etc. Not going to discuss this again. They need to do much more than just syncing buttons, for anything with an advanced system modeling. For the Huey and Mi-8 the code and API for Multiplayer dual-cockpit wasn't available (introduced with the L-39C and that has individual switches for each pilot), so basically they need to redo the ASM and create a solution for two people touching the same virtual switch in the sim, at the same time, while actually they operate two different physical switches on their HOTAS on two different PCs, while you can't control the network latency to ensure instantaneous sync and thus consistency... for starters. Edited November 2, 2018 by shagrat Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Rico Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Really hope this comes, been waiting years for it, the huey if Iam not mistaken had this "feature" listed in the sale page did it not ? METAR weather for DCS World missions Guide to help out new DCS MOOSE Users -> HERE Havoc Company Dedicated server info Connect IP: 94.23.215.203 SRS enabled - freqs - Main = 243, A2A = 244, A2G = 245 Please contact me HERE if you have any server feedback or METAR issues/requests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Really hope this comes, been waiting years for it, the huey if Iam not mistaken had this "feature" listed in the sale page did it not ? It did indeed, also for the mi8. RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Really hope this comes, been waiting years for it, the huey if Iam not mistaken had this "feature" listed in the sale page did it not ?Actually, it had not. It had "multiseat" advertised and it was the first module, that allowed us to switch seats in an aircraft and take different positions as pilot, co-pilot/commander or door gunner. It was implemented in a way that you could use it in multiplayer (AI "co-pilot"). As at that point in time multicrew, as in "flying together in one aircraft", was not implemented in DCS World this was what they could do and what they did. The confusion comes from the statements that where published on the forums, that ED was looking into a multicrew feature and are actively developing this. Belsimtek said they would look into this feature when available and see if they can implement it to the Huey and later the Mi-8. They were pretty confident in their words, but they made clear it is something depending on ED to implement, first. It turned out, with the L-39C that the way it was implemented caused issues with the old system modeling... and the rest of the story we know. I am desperate to get this feature myself. I even cannot understand, why we didn't at least get a passive navigator/instructor seat, that can monitor the gauges and help navigating, without the need to touch one single button... Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedi Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Actually, it had not. It had "multiseat" advertised and it was the first module, that allowed us to switch seats in an aircraft and take different positions as pilot, co-pilot/commander or door gunner. It was implemented in a way that you could use it in multiplayer (AI "co-pilot"). That's not correct, Belsimtek changed it after some time. The original text was: "Multiplayer coop mode for crew members of the same helicopter under development for a later update." Look under Key features: https://web.archive.org/web/20160117033859/http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com:80/en/products/helicopters/huey/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannibal Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 i just want the doorgunner to work properly in VR as a multiseat slot in multiplayer much like the L39. i hope and i wish! find me on steam! username: Hannibal_A101A http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969447179 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 That's not correct, Belsimtek changed it after some time. The original text was: "Multiplayer coop mode for crew members of the same helicopter under development for a later update." Look under Key features: https://web.archive.org/web/20160117033859/http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com:80/en/products/helicopters/huey/Interesting... :) Sooooo, BST how about that coop ride in the instructor seat, in-between solving the sync and switch issues? :notworthy: Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 That's not correct, Belsimtek changed it after some time. The original text was: "Multiplayer coop mode for crew members of the same helicopter under development for a later update." Look under Key features: https://web.archive.org/web/20160117033859/http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com:80/en/products/helicopters/huey/ Original text? That text is still there: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/helicopters/huey/ Multiplayer coop mode for crew members of the same helicopter under development for a later update. Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedi Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Oh, you are right. Even better, so they never abandoned the plan to make it multiplayer multicrew capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Oh, you are right. Even better, so they never abandoned the plan to make it multiplayer multicrew capable. Yes, they did not abandon that plan as they stated here: Hi guys! Multicrew was one of the topics we wanted to roll out as news article, but since you are active here recently, we will address it here. First of all we want to say that we don't want to run from what we said. Multicrew will be done and its progressing. Yes it taking its time and we can only be grateful for your patience! Things with helicopter multicrew are not exactly same as in, for instance, L-39. It is because L-39 have two separate cockpits, therefore two clients have each their own accessible controls to fiddle with. But its changing when you have two guys at the same cockpit and both of them have access to whole cockpit, things are getting tricky that way and we tried to dance around those issues we faced. And as solution so far we see separation of available commands for pilot and co-pilot with which we are working right now. As of now we have implementation for multicrew and we are testing it and resolving surfaced issues. Testing process taking its toll, it should go through different testers ours and ED.. At this point we think its a matter of months until multicrew patch for Huey will go live, if no critical showstopper issues will appear. Besides that, there is more changes for UH-1H, that are coming even sooner... You will hear about them soon.. Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Oh, you are right. Even better, so they never abandoned the plan to make it multiplayer multicrew capable.No, of course not. I just remember, that during the Early Access there was a discussion, if and when they will do it. The feedback then was, the feature is in development by ED and they need that to be integrated first. That was before the L-39C introduced dual cockpit. The culprit seems to be, that what works for a plane with two separate cockpits and two separate sets of buttons, controls etc., does not transfer easily to a shared cockpit where the controls of two pilots need to be tied into one(!) set of buttons, controls etc. in the sim. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlerkies Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 The culprit seems to be, that what works for a plane with two separate cockpits and two separate sets of buttons, controls etc., does not transfer easily to a shared cockpit where the controls of two pilots need to be tied into one(!) set of buttons, controls etc. in the sim. I can only imagine it being very complex trying to integrate all the 3rd party modules 'over time' into newer dcs platforms. I do wonder though if the 'urgency' is diminished as time goes by. You get early release, lots of hype, beta, lots of hype, but no clarity on 'up to speed' with the platform being dcs version. Im a huge DCS fan and support and own almost all modules except 2 or 3, but sometimes I do think think the battle to deliver new modules outweighs the quality. Has the huey searchlight been sorted yet? I think there needs to be a rethink by ED/DCS on the Beta/early releases to be honest. Having an open ended beta forever is not on. Love the Huey, love the improvements over time but even generically speaking what sort of timelines are given to developers to get to a specific std? Anyway, no hate here, like I said I love the platform and modules, just asking in general. Thermaltake View 91, Z390 Gigabyte Aorus Ultra, i9 9900K, Corsair H150i Pro, 32Gb Trident Z 3200, Gigabyte Aorus Extreme 2080ti, Corsair AX1200i, Warthog A-10 Hotas, MFG Crosswind pedals, TiR5 Pro, HP Reverb Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow KT Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Any news on this ? 'Shadow' Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holton181 Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Any news on this ?When (if!) it comes any news, you will certainly hear about it. Helicopters and Viggen DCS 1.5.7 and OpenBeta Win7 Pro 64bit i7-3820 3.60GHz P9X79 Pro 32GB GTX 670 2GB VG278H + a Dell PFT Lynx TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannibal Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 one of my most wanted DCS features is working multiseat multicrew... find me on steam! username: Hannibal_A101A http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969447179 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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