Little note about the FM from the devs

Just to clarify things.

You are flying the Gazelle today because you have pruchased it again or you dont have the Gazelle right now and talking using others experience?

Im not sure if you have the Gazelle or not actually.

Finally!

1.5 got updated to 2.5 and I got all the gazelle updates.

The gazelle is much more responsive and easier to control down low in amongst the Nevada buildings. Overall a superb update.

Just to clarify things.

 

You are flying the Gazelle today because you have pruchased it again or you dont have the Gazelle right now and talking using others experience?

 

Im not sure if you have the Gazelle or not actually.

He said he refunded the Gazelle, so he does not have the module. I am wondering how this conclusion happens, cause the first argument about the groundeffect can be proven wrong withing 1 min of flight, plus the other arguments can be proven wrong to.

There is nothing that can be answerred to someone who just wants to hate on something with arguments that are false.

I am wondering how this conclusion happens, cause the first argument about the groundeffect can be proven wrong withing 1 min of flight, plus the other arguments can be proven wrong to.

I think it might come from mistaken expectations but one can never be sure, perhaps Kultteri's a ex-SA-342M pilot with high expectations ?

I think the Gazelle ground effect catches people out because the Gazelle's rotor disc is smaller than the Huey's so IGE occurs but is limited, being much closer to the ground - small diameter = lower IGE (the lower IGE is documented for the SA341). It also doesn't help that Gazelle is more sensitive about it's IGE equilibrium point and momentum causes it to overshoot equilibrium and rise or sink unless the pilot takes action (rather than settling into an air cushion like the Huey) - I can't say if it's correct behaviour but given the Gazelle's sensitive cyclic, I 'guess' a sensitive collective is reasonable (as usual, RL experience/feedback should govern Polychop, not 'guesses').

For his other comment,

... it felt like the fuselage had little to no interaction with drag

I don't get it either :

• In forward flight it has a terminal velocity, so has drag.

• Flying backward figure 8's, the tail becomes more difficult to control and at about 80? km/h flips around as the anti-torque fenestron doesn't have enough authority to keep it at the back.

• As forward velocity increase:

+ the anti-torque fenestron looses authority due to air flow, yaw turns are difficult or ineffective and the helicopter needs to be banked to turn

+ the tail wants to be at the back and anti-torque pedal input can be reduced/neutral

• Pitching up while reducing collective/maintaining height, reduces speed/increases drag

Of course, Kultteri is entitled to his 'first impression' but IMHO one hours flight in a new module doesn't seem long enough to make a solid judgement.

The flight model of the gazelle was the exact reason why I refunded it immediately after buying it. Now I don't know what your team is thinking polychop but isn't ground effect something that every helicopter has? I couldn't get it into a ground effect hover at all back then. (about a month ago 2.5 beta) Also it felt like the fuselage had little to no interaction with drag. I really want to spend money on it again but I really cannot with that flight model. It does not feel natural at all without ground effect and physics defying flight. This is just my own experience with the gazelle flying it around for an hour or so.

Wow you mastered the Gazelle in an hour or so that is impressive.

If you turn AP off you get a tad more authority from the tail rotor, just saying.

And at higher speed you can still wrangle her around to line up flying backwards. :D

Thinking about this I probably need:helpsmilie:

I think it might come from mistaken expectations but one can never be sure, perhaps Kultteri's a ex-SA-342M pilot with high expectations ?

 

I think the Gazelle ground effect catches people out because the Gazelle's rotor disc is smaller than the Huey's so IGE occurs but is limited, being much closer to the ground - small diameter = lower IGE (the lower IGE is documented for the SA341). It also doesn't help that Gazelle is more sensitive about it's IGE equilibrium point and momentum causes it to overshoot equilibrium and rise or sink unless the pilot takes action (rather than settling into an air cushion like the Huey) - I can't say if it's correct behaviour but given the Gazelle's sensitive cyclic, I 'guess' a sensitive collective is reasonable (as usual, RL experience/feedback should govern Polychop, not 'guesses').

 

For his other comment,

 

 

 

I don't get it either :

 

• In forward flight it has a terminal velocity, so has drag.

• Flying backward figure 8's, the tail becomes more difficult to control and at about 80? km/h flips around as the anti-torque fenestron doesn't have enough authority to keep it at the back.

• As forward velocity increase:

+ the anti-torque fenestron looses authority due to air flow, yaw turns are difficult or ineffective and the helicopter needs to be banked to turn

+ the tail wants to be at the back and anti-torque pedal input can be reduced/neutral

• Pitching up while reducing collective/maintaining height, reduces speed/increases drag

 

Of course, Kultteri is entitled to his 'first impression' but IMHO one hours flight in a new module doesn't seem long enough to make a solid judgement.

My judgement is definetely not completely solid as i didnt make any research on the matter except watch a few videos of gazelles flying. I could see the behavior fairly similiar to the dcs model in flight. But, i defintelely saw a clear ground effect hover in all of them. That small rotor dics could make sense but if im not sure, the ka-50 has an even smaller rotor disc size which i an able to hover in ground effect. And i could obviously get t to hover. But it most definetely wasnt in ground effect. Atleast didnt feel like it ehich could be explained by a sensitive collective.

Not going to defend any of the fuselage things as it was just an inital feel but i tried the ground effect quite a lot in that hour .

Also to clarify, im using the warthog hotases throttle for collective so accuracy shouldnt be a problem

To add on my last post. I did a test where on purposely trying to get the helicopter into a VRS state which I could not enter and then lost my tail rotor on a tree and landed on my skids. After that i just raised the collective to try it out. The craft took off fuselage spinning without any input on the controls it just ascended to the heavens never stalling or anything. Also this take off was from a slight slope eithout wind. To my understanding of gyroscopic precession this is not possible, especially without the tail rotor as losing it will change the center of balance of the craft.

As a sidenote on the VRS, I’ve seen a post from the devs explaining this so I will have to take their word for it. Also all of this was done in 2,5 beta so I dont know if it was just a bug in the beta

He said he refunded the Gazelle, so he does not have the module. I am wondering how this conclusion happens, cause the first argument about the groundeffect can be proven wrong withing 1 min of flight, plus the other arguments can be proven wrong to.

 

There is nothing that can be answerred to someone who just wants to hate on something with arguments that are false.

Now first of all, I’m not hating, I’m seeking answers to my experiences with the gazelle. Second, I’m not stating that my arguments are true nor false. If you can prove me wrong I’ll be happy to accept it and spend money on the module again.

KA50 Rotor dia 14.5mtr 330mtr sq (165sq mtr * 2)

341 Implied 342 rotor dia 10.5mtr 86 sq mtr

R44 rotor dia 10.1mtr 80 sq mtr

KA50 Rotor dia 14.5mtr 330mtr sq (165sq mtr * 2)

 

341 Implied 342 rotor dia 10.5mtr 86 sq mtr

 

R44 rotor dia 10.1mtr 80 sq mtr

Thanks for that, so that could explain ground effect behavior

Thanks for that, so that could explain ground effect behavior

To a degree, rotor efficiency and aircraft weight also will effect this, the KA 50 is some 8 to 11 tones compared to Gazelle at about 2 and a bit tones MTOW.

To be fair in the Huey you can keep your sink rate low and you will get to a point where GE will stop your descent, different story if your fully fuelled and armed. With the the Gazelle this is not so obviously apparent until you burn off a lot of fuel off or start lightly loaded.

To a degree, rotor efficiency and aircraft weight also will effect this, the KA 50 is some 8 to 11 tones compared to Gazelle at about 2 and a bit tones MTOW.

 

To be fair in the Huey you can keep your sink rate low and you will get to a point where GE will stop your descent, different story if your fully fuelled and armed. With the the Gazelle this is not so obviously apparent until you burn off a lot of fuel off or start lightly loaded.

Good point, still if you are extremely heavy in the huey the only way to take off is from a ground effect hover take off using translational lift. That is why ground effect is important

Good point, still if you are extremely heavy in the huey the only way to take off is from a ground effect hover take off using translational lift. That is why ground effect is important

Sure you get to a point with weight that the rotor will just lift you off he ground and yes you need to get relative air flow across the rotor to get ETL (additional lift).

Out of the box the Gazelle is pretty much at MTOW unless you create you own missions and load it out how you want.

If you load the Gazelle up with 20 to 30% fuel you start to get the cushion effect add 4 or 5 mtrs/sec of dynamic wind and she behaves pretty well. :D

BTW I fly the L variant mostly unless on servers.

Sure you get to a point with weight that the rotor will just lift you off he ground and yes you need to get relative air flow across the rotor to get ETL (additional lift).

 

Out of the box the Gazelle is pretty much at MTOW unless you create you own missions and load it out how you want.

 

If you load the Gazelle up with 20 to 30% fuel you start to get the cushion effect add 4 or 5 mtrs/sec of dynamic wind and she behaves pretty well. :D

 

BTW I fly the L variant mostly unless on servers.

I believe you, cannot test that at the moment unless my issues are resolved and I’ll buy it again

Have you tried the sraight vertical take off without using anything but collective worked for me even with out a tail rotor which broke off as stated in one of my earlier posts? That for me was the moment I wanted to get rid of the gazelle

I believe you, cannot test that at the moment unless my issues are resolved and I’ll buy it again

 

Have you tried the sraight vertical take off without using anything but collective worked for me even with out a tail rotor which broke off as stated in one of my earlier posts? That for me was the moment I wanted to get rid of the gazelle

Oh yes! Something about the centric nature of the cyclic and CG not changing right?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=194814

Oh yes! Something about the centric nature of the cyclic and CG not changing right?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=194814

No, its just that behavior like that is impossible due to aerodynamic effects and gyroscopic precession, especilly without your tail rotor or a part of it missing

No, its just that behavior like that is impossible due to aerodynamic effects and gyroscopic precession, especilly without your tail rotor or a part of it missing

You mean to say Wagtendonk W.J. Principles of Helicopter Flight 2nd Edition is correct,.. :D

I think you are being too critical, the Gazelle is pretty good it has it's failings but I have to say the FM is getting so much better with more in the pipe line. I'm a glass half full guy and see merit in the Gazelle, Huey, Mi8 and Ka-50. I have also seen DCS videos of A10's flying with literally no wings and I am sure that is not possible right? So maybe not everything is perfect in DCS.

So unless you want to give us some hard theory of flight evidence or actual IRL pilot knowledge all your doing is belly aching seemingly over something you don't want to fly in DCS. Makes no sense to me. ;)

How is it too critical if gazelle is stable without tail rotor ?? Really :D

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1

XDDDD

I have never seen any heli stable without a tail rotor Ka50 excluded just in case, have I flown a heli without a tail rotor sure have, I have broken literally hundreds, was it stable well only to the point I can take off and land.

What I am saying is an hour or so total fly time and what seems to be a glitch either in DCS or the Gazelle or a map or a combination of all the above, and I have seen plenty of those, isn't indicative of a solid judgement of anything other then glitches occur.

If it could be repeated then it could be examined and likely sorted out, heck I have crashed a server attempting to land inside an aircraft carrier and that made for one weird 10 minutes of mayhem. :D

I'm not defending Polychop what I am saying is instead of "some glitch therefore it is totally broken" lets bring hard evidence and facts so that they can examine it and fix it. :)

How is it too critical if gazelle is stable without tail rotor ?? Really :D

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Obviously not, that wasnt what I meant at all if you understand what I said

You mean to say Wagtendonk W.J. Principles of Helicopter Flight 2nd Edition is correct,.. :D

 

I think you are being too critical, the Gazelle is pretty good it has it's failings but I have to say the FM is getting so much better with more in the pipe line. I'm a glass half full guy and see merit in the Gazelle, Huey, Mi8 and Ka-50. I have also seen DCS videos of A10's flying with literally no wings and I am sure that is not possible right? So maybe not everything is perfect in DCS.

 

So unless you want to give us some hard theory of flight evidence or actual IRL pilot knowledge all your doing is belly aching seemingly over something you don't want to fly in DCS. Makes no sense to me. ;)

Yeah I most likely am a little too critical. And don’ get me wrong, I would love to fly the gazelle. Just the first impression was such a turn-off as it didn’t seem real. The reason why I started this was to get answers to why this is happening. And I’ve already gotten some from you atleast. But I’m leaving this be now before I get mad :D

Yeah I most likely am a little too critical. And don’ get me wrong, I would love to fly the gazelle. Just the first impression was such a turn-off as it didn’t seem real. The reason why I started this was to get answers to why this is happening. And I’ve already gotten some from you atleast. But I’m leaving this be now before I get mad :D

Oh no don't get mad as you see I also have asked many questions as well. ;)

I have had the Gazelle for some time now and it really has been getting better and better with each update. There was a time when I first got it I had a love hate relationship with the Gaz,.. It would boost my confidence and then without notice kill me for no reason,.. :P

Just for fun and even more ground effect when hovering in any heli set up a mission with like 7 or 8mts/sec wind and set weather to dynamic, keeps you on your toes when you change direction in forward flight at first, especially in the Mi8. ;) :D

At 25mtr/sec wind the Gazelle literally leaps off the ground, just saying. :megalol:

Actually I think if you were to look at the broader picture you'd have a ball with the Gaz too.

Oh no don't get mad as you see I also have asked many questions as well. ;)

 

I have had the Gazelle for some time now and it really has been getting better and better with each update. There was a time when I first got it I had a love hate relationship with the Gaz,.. It would boost my confidence and then without notice kill me for no reason,.. :P

 

 

 

Just for fun and even more ground effect when hovering in any heli set up a mission with like 7 or 8mts/sec wind and set weather to dynamic, keeps you on your toes when you change direction in forward flight at first, especially in the Mi8. ;) :D

 

At 25mtr/sec wind the Gazelle literally leaps off the ground, just saying. :megalol:

 

Actually I think if you were to look at the broader picture you'd have a ball with the Gaz too.

I am fairly confused, are you talking about ground effect here?