AI cheating behavior. Taking all the fun out.

I agree that DCS AI behaviour is so dysfunctional that it is dragging down an otherwise great sim. ; in particular the lack of difference between AI skill settings. Many of us prefer to single - play and to hone our skills by working up the enemy AI scale of skill. We need AI to have at least 3 grades: novice, medium and ace. Novice skill could be 30%, medium 50% and ace 80%.The developers should not treat this as a minor issue. If left uncorrected it will become a real game - spoiler.

P-51D AI more unrealistic in OB 2.5 than in 1.5.8

I have two similar missions, one Bf-109 (me) versus P-51 AI and the other with FW-190 (me) versus P-51 AI. I have the same pair of missions in 1.5.8 and in 2.5.

In 1.5.8 I can defeat the P-51 in both missions, although more easily with the Bf-109.

In 2.5 however: the P-51`s performance seems even more unrealistic than in 1.5.8 and I can rarely defeat it with the FW-190. Usually I don't get shot down, but my engine dies before I get the Mustang in shooting position.

With the Bf-109 I can still defeat the Mustang but it seems a bit harder to keep up with its crazy manoeuvers.

The AI overperformance is enough of a problem in 1.5.8 and I'm disappointed ED are making it even worse.

I have two similar missions, one Bf-109 (me) versus P-51 AI and the other with FW-190 (me) versus P-51 AI. I have the same pair of missions in 1.5.8 and in 2.5.

In 1.5.8 I can defeat the P-51 in both missions, although more easily with the Bf-109.

In 2.5 however: the P-51`s performance seems even more unrealistic than in 1.5.8 and I can rarely defeat it with the FW-190. Usually I don't get shot down, but my engine dies before I get the Mustang in shooting position.

With the Bf-109 I can still defeat the Mustang but it seems a bit harder to keep up with its crazy manoeuvers.

The AI overperformance is enough of a problem in 1.5.8 and I'm disappointed ED are making it even worse.

There was a notice in one of the changelogs about limiting the max Gs for AI planes to more "realistic" values.

Still this won't solve the skill level issue, but at least they would loose some superpowers?

Can I please add in my concerns regarding the accuracy of AAA fire from ground based enemies, which "feels" more than a little too good.

Can I please add in my concerns regarding the accuracy of AAA fire from ground based enemies, which "feels" more than a little too good.

They even hit you while flying away from them on a perpendicular course!

In the army we learned (and tested) that this is never going to work without a ballistic calculation so doctrine is: never shoot at a plane that passed the 90° line on its course and flies away from you.

The whole AI would benefit from a thorough overhaul, it seems.

Maybe the AI got a G-suit? LOL I know I'd like one in my Stang

This is the number one immersion killer for me and the reason I no longer fly DCS.

Its amazing to me that it doesn't go to the top of the "fix it" list

Agreeing with this thread because I'm having the exact same anger with it. It's impossible to turn fight enemy fighters unless you faaar outclass them, and even then some of the simplified flight models of the AI aircraft resemble UFOs than actual planes. Which makes dogfighting them an exercise in tedium unless you have the missiles to do something about it.

The AI Mig-21 can maintain full angular authority even at <100 knots. So it just hits the burner and keeps looping and looping and looping. If you turn hot on it, it will abort its loop, gain tons of airspeed, and turn straight at you.

I'm sorry, this is not the behavior of an energy fighter. Every AI fighter in this game behaves like a turn fighter and it's frustrating. Utterly incomprehensible how anyone could have seen this and said "Yeah that's fine".

This isn't even accounting for the damage model that allows AI airplanes to lose a wing and keep turning at you stronger and faster than your perfectly functional aircraft.

Can I please add in my concerns regarding the accuracy of AAA fire from ground based enemies, which "feels" more than a little too good.

Yeah this too. I basically don't go on dumb bombing runs anymore because anything with a pistol can snipe my pilot straight out of my aircraft. Even T-72s are extremely deadly, getting .50 cal shots against the weak points of my engine even if I'm moving at Mach 1.5 over them.

Any update regarding improvement of the AI? Can we expect any updat in the near future?

Forward to 40 seconds in.

Edit: Strange, tried that yesterday but it came up blank. Must have copied a letter too many or something. Thanks!

I don't know if already reported in this topic ( I havn't all read) but the AI new Mig 29-S ( I havn't try for the A) can use the airbrake even with the central external tank embarked.

http://h ttps://youtu.be/EUvlkaU8Pf4?t=40

 

 

Sorry but I can't figure out the Youtube link function on this forum, enjoy anyhow!

Quick off-topic tutorial:

Copy just the BOLD part of the URL, and paste in the “share YouTube link” window.

That’s it.

On-topic: Given that ED has probably 10,000 items on its “to-do” list, maybe someone with knowledge of how to fix the AI could gather a few DCS’ers (who also have programming knowledge) and volunteer themselves to ED’s head honchos? Maybe even prepare a list of suggested fixes, complete with written code?

Similar to when someone makes a high-quality skin for a country that has that plane, but no skin has been made (until a talented player-volunteer makes it).

AI/ATC/Weather engine are very very bad. FSX has better weather and ATC and it is 10 years old sim. AI is bad not only as an opponent, but pretty dumb wingmen as well. Could not do proper formations, can not do any tactics, can not do proper landings, OHB, tacturns cannot even fly low without crashing into the ground. It's just BAAD. It has been discussed in countless number of threads but ED doesn't bother fixing it, just empty promises for the future. Who knows, may be one day we will see if not the flight model, at least better wingmen capable of doing some proper basic flying and better way for comms rather than browsing menus F-keys.

AI/ATC/Weather engine are very very bad. FSX has better weather and ATC and it is 10 years old sim. AI is bad not only as an opponent, but pretty dumb wingmen as well. Could not do proper formations, can not do any tactics, can not do proper landings, OHB, tacturns cannot even fly low without crashing into the ground. It's just BAAD. It has been discussed in countless number of threads but ED doesn't bother fixing it, just empty promises for the future. Who knows, may be one day we will see if not the flight model, at least better wingmen capable of doing some proper basic flying and better way for comms rather than browsing menus F-keys.

Vaicom pro plugin for VoiceAttack=no more comms menus and f-keys

Vaicom pro plugin for VoiceAttack=no more comms menus and f-keys

Well, vaicom will partially solve the coms problem, but this is not the main issue, as with the current level of AI and ATC there is not much point to do any comms with it at all.

Granted . The thing is , ED culture is not one of gamers . DCS is a side-job that keeps them in pocket money . Thus the things that keep a sim entertaining (AI , dynamic weather , dynamic campaign , ATC , multiplayer) are painfully under-resourced ., and i do mean painfully !

AI/ATC/Weather engine are very very bad. FSX has better weather and ATC and it is 10 years old sim. AI is bad not only as an opponent, but pretty dumb wingmen as well. Could not do proper formations, can not do any tactics, can not do proper landings, OHB, tacturns cannot even fly low without crashing into the ground. It's just BAAD. It has been discussed in countless number of threads but ED doesn't bother fixing it, just empty promises for the future. Who knows, may be one day we will see if not the flight model, at least better wingmen capable of doing some proper basic flying and better way for comms rather than browsing menus F-keys.

...and FSX has this nice "You crashed! Fly again Y/N" damage model, no weapons/ballistics calculations etc. etc. etc. that need CPU resources in DCS in addition to the ATC, weather and so on. Also most of that stuff for FSX, if done right, are expensive add-ons.

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I don't see your point but ok.

 

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The PC to do both perfectly, in the same sim has not been sold to mere consumers, yet...

FSX can do nice ATC and clouds, but will never produce a believable combat environment...

You compare apples and oranges. FSX -> realistic procedural training for civil aviation vs. a realistic simulation of a combat environment.

The PC to do both perfectly, in the same sim has not been sold to mere consumers, yet...

FSX can do nice ATC and clouds, but will never produce a believable combat environment...

Precisely although this part of the game (sorry simulation) doesn't bother me because I don't fight and I don't play online although that may change after 20 years LOL !

Mizzy

a realistic simulation of a combat environment

Only if you disregard AI and weather in the combat environment. :smartass:

You compare apples and oranges. FSX -> realistic procedural training for civil aviation vs. a realistic simulation of a combat environment.

The PC to do both perfectly, in the same sim has not been sold to mere consumers, yet...

FSX can do nice ATC and clouds, but will never produce a believable combat environment...

What realistic combat you can do with this AI when your wingman can't do a simple fighter wing ?

And I am pretty damn sure that the current CPUs can handle the additional load of a slightly better atc or AI. And don't go for this as it is off topic but we usually have a few more cores to be utilized which dcs doesn't even touch. It's all about ED to spare some resources to code it.

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Combat environment also includes AI which can fly and not crash each other weather and atc which will tell you that there is another plane on the runway.

What realistic combat you can do with this AI when your wingman can't do a simple fighter wing ?

 

And I am pretty damn sure that the current CPUs can handle the additional load of a slightly better atc or AI. And don't go for this as it is off topic but we usually have a few more cores to be utilized which dcs doesn't even touch. It's all about ED to spare some resources to code it.

 

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I agree, I would also love perfect AI, full real ATC, that handles multi runway airports, carriers and AI that can do uncontrolled procedures on small strips. Add better damage model and a dozen other improvements I can potentially see.

On the other hand a lot of these are moving up the priority list and ATC for example, is tackled with carrier ops, as it needs complete new logic. Consequently, they need to work out the complex carrier ATC and after(!) that overhaul the airrfield ATC.

Last but not least, ED is not a major label with massive ressources.

The focus, from the beginning with the original Flanker and later Lock On: Modern Air Combat was always on the military, the combat aspect.

There is also a reason to do another "Modern Air Combat", as there is a huge potential for customers out there not that keen to do procedures and more focused on the combat simulation aspect. It isn't just a matter of putting in a couple nightshifts to get all this done.

That is why they prioritize and sometimes we (me included) don't like the priority ED seems necessary...

Best way to see whats wrong with AI = use mission gen and take popcorn and enjoy :D

Default AI settings are fubar:

-AI helos try to enage fighters , they hover in high alt.

-AI CAS planes go blindly against deadly threats

-AI fighters target helos far away even when there is dangerous enemy fighters coming nearby

And list goes on.

And FUN part:

All this can fixed 80% by adjusting advanced options.

WHY STOCK DEFAULTS SETTINGS ARE SO FUBAR?

Makes mission making and generator pain.

And for MAC it will just drive new users crazy...

So please ED , just adjust default task settings , would make great start.

And before i got banned or get warning, please moderators --> take this idea to ED.

Thank you.

...and they do. A lot of improvement to the AI has been implemented over the years. The damage model is now in focus, as this was one of the major problems with fighting AI.

 

I agree, I would also love perfect AI, full real ATC, that handles multi runway airports, carriers and AI that can do uncontrolled procedures on small strips. Add better damage model and a dozen other improvements I can potentially see.

On the other hand a lot of these are moving up the priority list and ATC for example, is tackled with carrier ops, as it needs complete new logic. Consequently, they need to work out the complex carrier ATC and after(!) that overhaul the airrfield ATC.

 

Last but not least, ED is not a major label with massive ressources.

The focus, from the beginning with the original Flanker and later Lock On: Modern Air Combat was always on the military, the combat aspect.

There is also a reason to do another "Modern Air Combat", as there is a huge potential for customers out there not that keen to do procedures and more focused on the combat simulation aspect. It isn't just a matter of putting in a couple nightshifts to get all this done.

That is why they prioritize and sometimes we (me included) don't like the priority ED seems necessary...

Haukka81 pretty much said it. It is not about having it all perfect, but at least usable. ATC is close to useless at the moment, it can be tweaked so you can have multiple assets taking off and landing and taxing without crashing each other. AI behavior... well the list is veeeery long.

It's not about how big ED is, but their focus on releasing new stuff while there is too many old things that needs to be fixed/improved. We all know the reason for that, but that doesn't mean we, as a customers of them, can't point in the forums and show that some people are not happy about this approach.

A bit off-topic but there are probably dozens of well known major bugs in the released modules, which were working fine in the past and seems like easy fixes, which stays for months even years, while devs are focused on implementing new system for the hornet for example.