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F-117A isn't 100% invisible on radar


Mig Fulcrum

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Regarding the downed 117, Enemy forces say they tweaked the wavelengths of their radars to acquire the aircraft at its most vulnerable point, when weapons bay was open.

 

Also, information suggests some communications were intercepted and allowed Enemy forces to focus their SAMs in a certain area.

 

With that said B-2 strikes minutes after the 117 was shot down continued and they were not engaged during the period of "vulnerability". Take it for what its worth.

 

117s continue to fly today in some capacity. (source Combat aircraft) They may just be maintenance flights.

 

63

 

To give you what really happened that night, I would know, I used to work on them myself, sweet aircraft to work on. Just a pain in the rear to get to any panel due to the coating.

That night we lost that F-117a, was not due to the enemy tweaking there wavelengths as you say, it was due to a malfunction on the aircraft itself. After the pilot dropped his bombs, one of the bomb doors failed to close, that itself made the aircraft light up like a X-mas tree on enemy radar, and that's the only reason that the aircraft was shot down.

 

Also, for the reason why they retired the aircraft, its not because they are not stealth or not invisible. It was due to the age of the aircraft, these F-117a were never designed for a long term aircraft. Their air frame hours life was about 4000 hours I think, but was extended over and over due to the need for the aircraft, and the other reason for its retirement was due to the cost to fly them was expensive.

 

But the 5 years I worked on them was some of the coolest years in my career.

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The F-117 is as mystified as is whole "Stealth" concept.

 

There ain't "Stealth" and "non-Stealth", there is only a range when aircraft echoes that it sends back to the radar overcomes the background noise and starts making a "blibs" and it is detection, and then comes a range when chose are so strong that you can be tracked.

Stealth is a concept put into the design of an aircraft through reduction of radar reflection, IR, emissions etc. it is not just about radar alone. Stealth aircraft use this concept, if they don't then they are non stealth.

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That's interesting, as there's another ex-F117 maintainer on these boards, he hates the aircraft :)

 

That would be mvsgas.

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Indeed it would, I just intentionally didn't name him.

 

Oops, my big mouth has failed me again. The older I get the more stupid things I do.

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To give you what really happened that night, I would know, I used to work on them myself, sweet aircraft to work on. Just a pain in the rear to get to any panel due to the coating.

That night we lost that F-117a, was not due to the enemy tweaking there wavelengths as you say, it was due to a malfunction on the aircraft itself. After the pilot dropped his bombs, one of the bomb doors failed to close, that itself made the aircraft light up like a X-mas tree on enemy radar, and that's the only reason that the aircraft was shot down.

 

Also, for the reason why they retired the aircraft, its not because they are not stealth or not invisible. It was due to the age of the aircraft, these F-117a were never designed for a long term aircraft. Their air frame hours life was about 4000 hours I think, but was extended over and over due to the need for the aircraft, and the other reason for its retirement was due to the cost to fly them was expensive.

 

But the 5 years I worked on them was some of the coolest years in my career.

 

Let me guess, that was your first aircraft? I was on 810 from 2004 to 2007 and hated every second. Hated using "Napta" for cleaning and taking "butter" off to remove a panel. Getting shock every time you jump the intake to the stupid drag chute. I hate every inch of those things. I try to take my name of 810 before it retire but they made me put it back on. You can PM me if you prefer. From 2005 to until I got orders, I used to update my dream sheet daily, alternating between Osan and Kunsan.

 

 

Indeed it would, I just intentionally didn't name him.

 

Oops, my big mouth has failed me again. The older I get the more stupid things I do.

 

I'm sure he won't mind, he's been quite public about his disdain for the plane :)

LOL, I does not matter guys, thanks for the sentiment though. :thumbup:


Edited by mvsgas
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To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Hey mvsgas, Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays!!!!

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same bro, hope you get well soon.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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same bro, hope you get well soon.

 

Thanks. I am better every day.

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You mean Pierre Sprey? The guy who said the F-15 was a waste of money? The one who thought pilots were expendable by throwing them in cheap aircraft with no radars (F-16 pilot who has flown the MiG-29 to the F-15 said the F-16 would be better with a bigger radar..)? The one who said the M60 was comparable, or even better than the Abrams because you could field twice the amount of tanks (what good would that do? The cannon would have a hard time against even a bare T-72...).

 

I don't wanna go OT, but here's some new information lately...

 

"The patent claims composites with CNT-infused fibers are capable of absorbing EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz, a bandwidth unheard of in commercial absorbers, with particular effectiveness in L- through K-band. The patent does not quantify the absorptivity, but does say the panels would be “nearly a black body across . . . various radar bands.” Also, interestingly, a layer can be composed so an attached computer can read the induced currents in the fibers, making the layer a radar receiver."

 

I'd say that's quite impressive for F-35, and doesn't sound like it's a sitting duck at all.

 

Sounds like to me the USAF learned it's lesson about long wave length radars with the F-117 downing.

 

I would also like to throw in there was no jamming that night, which would've been especially helpful. USAF knows that stealth isn't the end all, be all solution for air defense. That's why they apply jamming techniques and even have developed things such as MALD-J's.

 

All the stars lined up for the shootdown, but it was indeed a big feat. So you can't take away from that.

 

Pierre Sprey is a joke, he never designed any plane, he sat in an office and wrote specifications.

 

That is not the same thing as designing, and he has been proven wrong repeatedly.

 

The F-35 is another case of this, once you read up on it, and filter out the BS, you will soon realise that it is going to be a game changer.

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I've noticed the f-117 in DCS isn't stealth like you can see in the screenshot, i wish it become stealth in the near future, it could be an interesting (and realistic) feature in PvE matches.

Also the SAM managed to shoot down some F117s.

 

it would be more realistic if you would just search for basic stuff on radars and plane. No plane is 100% invisible; it depends on the radar, and 117 is 100% invisible ONLY from head on. I can't believe what ppl are asking for, when they are missing basic 12 yo knowledge even before internet days.

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Radar cross section figures are always against a specific frequency of signal. Maybe an airplane has 1m^2 against 10 GHz but 10 against 1 GHz or whatever. Also there is the particular angle you measure from.

 

The attenuation factor in general is a function of at least: frequency, azimuth angle, elevation angle, range and probably some more.

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  • 1 month later...

One came through RAF Linton on Ouse in 1995 (I think or possibly 96) and I can give you all a few hints as to what it looked like from ATC Radar (Watchman). RAF Linton on Ouse is a training base that operates the Shorts Tucano.

 

One F117 came through for a practice diversion so it was under surveillance radar control and precision approach radar control. The F117 had next to no radar signature outside of 10 miles, next to no primary return. It had around 1/8 the primary return at less than one mile compared to a Tucano.

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One came through RAF Linton on Ouse in 1995 (I think or possibly 96) and I can give you all a few hints as to what it looked like from ATC Radar (Watchman). RAF Linton on Ouse is a training base that operates the Shorts Tucano.

 

One F117 came through for a practice diversion so it was under surveillance radar control and precision approach radar control. The F117 had next to no radar signature outside of 10 miles, next to no primary return. It had around 1/8 the primary return at less than one mile compared to a Tucano.

 

...and when operating in non combat environments radar reflectors attached to the airframe were standard equipment.

 

F-117_Reflectors.jpg

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Just like how there was a old 90's movie "broken arrow" about F-117, and how they simply started to track it by scanning air disturbance that aircraft caused by speeding through the air.

 

Wasn't that a B-2? It's been awhile since I saw that movie. What they flew at the beginning was a B-2 but I don't remember if there were any other planes in the movie.

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