Burning Skies Stats aka the Caucasus Turkey Shoot ;)

http://burning-skies.vioo.com.ua/en/planes/4/list.html

Following on from this discussion...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3061749#post3061749

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what I'm looking at...

But I guess despite the Spitfires introduction the Germans are still kicking ass, lol.

Poor Allies aircraft have absolutely zero chance in winning anything, it's a slaughter and the end is near, that's what it's supposed to mean ....

How is this compiled, counted? The numbers seem very strange in any case. The P51 is the oldest WWII module, yet has the least number of flights except for the Dora. Then there are the takeoff and landings numbers. How is it possible that the number of takeoffs is less than the number of flights? Does the server support air starts? Maybe someone can explain these numbers because they don't add up.

Stats are reset periodically. These ones have been running since the 1st of Feb.

They're pretty meaningless at this point anyway.

Comparing people piloting the 109k4 which has been out for well over a year and has well practiced pilots, vs Spitfire pilots who've only had the module a couple of months.

They'll be more relevent when the skill sets even out later on in the year.

Not that I disagree that the longer the spit is around, the better its dedicated pilots will get with it, but alot of the 109 pilots on the front page haven't been flying non stop since the 109 was released.

I know I've been flying for less than a year, Darkraiderss about a year, Diesel and David flew no DCS for at least 2 years and only started shortly before the spit was released again. Many of the Russian pilots there only started flying on the Luftwaffe side after the spit was released. Obviously there are also alot of new pilots in DCS who are still figuring out what works and what doesn't on both sides. I think (and hope) that when Normandy comes out, and as time goes on we'll start seeing an increase in the average quality of pilots on both sides.

The stats are relevant. If it were a tighter race between the competitors we could talk about sample size, but it's not even close.

One caveat is that the stats only reflect the overall quality of these fighters on the Burning Skies map. It is possible we'd get a different result with a different mission design.

Don´t get the point of the stats. What are they trying to prove? In any case as Gavai says only prove what happened on the Burning Skies server.

There is balance between the allied and thr axis. Mostly the problem are strategic problems. Lets compare the planes. The bf 109 is the turnfighter for the germans, but the spit turns better and in a dogfight the speed advantage the bf 109 has is worth nothing. The fw 190 d9 is the boom'n'zoomer of the germans. The only thing it performs better than anyone is speed, but if a plane is above you you are dead. You cant even turn with a p51. The biggest mistake the p51 pilots often do is not climbing and dogfighting. The spitfire pilots mostly get tunnelvision in a fight and get shot down from behind.

See you in the skies!

FW 190 D9

There is balance between the allied and thr axis. Mostly the problem are strategic problems.

You are kidding right?

Lets compare the planes. The bf 109 is the turnfighter for the germans, but the spit turns better and in a dogfight the speed advantage the bf 109 has is worth nothing.

So in your opinion the ability to dictate the fight i.e. Being able to engage and disengage at will is "worth nothing" are you serious or are you being sarcastic?

The fw 190 d9 is the boom'n'zoomer of the germans. The only thing it performs better than anyone is speed, but if a plane is above you you are dead.

This really depends on how much higher both you and the enemy A/C is, as long as you have enough altitude you can point your nose at the ground and just run. Again dictating the fight.

You cant even turn with a p51. The biggest mistake the p51 pilots often do is not climbing and dogfighting.

The spitfire pilots mostly get tunnelvision in a fight and get shot down from behind.

Agreed.. however that goes for every aircraft and really the only reason a 109 or 190 is even shot down...

However the current status of the Spitfire is that your only advantage is manoeuvrability, which is a double edged sword at best because you need to be slow to take advantage of this as you will just end up blacking out or breaking your wings if you turn at too high a speed.

The 109 can out climb, out dive and is much much faster.

So the current status of the Spitfire is this....

The Spitfire are the Anchovett, of course, 109 the Bonito/Tuna...

And just when you think things couldn't get worse the 190 arrives...

The spitfire pilots mostly get tunnelvision in a fight and get shot down from behind.

 

Agreed.. however that goes for every aircraft and really the only reason a 109 or 190 is even shot down...

 

Not really. You can shoot them down from many situations :

TN9oHgP13BA

I just selected this quote but this goes for the whole thread you're trying to describe things in this black and white light. And things have different nuances .

You try to make everything about the plane.

I see myself as having a big advantage because i can shoot and fly just as well with my left hand as i can with my right hand.That's one thing that's not plane related.

Returning to the situation at hand: If a pilot is flying straight and doesn't check 6. It depends how fast you dive on him , from what angle all that take skill.So you maximise exponentially you chances by diving faster and shooting better .And all that differs from pilot to pilot It matters how fast and accurate they are to take advantage of the situation. It's not this one or zero simplistic situation that you describe: energy fighter always wins , turn fighter always loses.109 always wins spitfire always loses.

I did win a lot, and i mean a lot of fights in a 109 with no mw50 vs a p51. And that's the situation you're talking about only it's 109 with no boost vs p51 in place of spitfire with no boost vs 109.

The thing is that even with mw50 boost i was never able to catch a p51 that was trying to run away and had a fair amount of separation.Maybe there is a trick involved in using manual prop pitch or some other trick that i don't know about.Closing the radiator also doen't help and blows my engine.

Being able to shoot from high speed ,being able to deflection shoot takes massive skill and practice.If i always dive from this steep angle my chance of getting a kill is hudge. But i can't do that every time.And when i started simming i could't do it at all.

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In the time i've flown on the server you talk about, only twice i've been attacked from higher altitude (i know one of the pilots was cool-hand because i looked at tackview). And in turn i've attacked other from higher altitude hundreds of times.

I fly both sides when I jump into a 109 I know things are going to be a lot easier for me this is my experience online.

I flew the 109 for the first time in quite a while by myself no wingman and got 5 kills in short succession only getting shot down by a spitfire when I became target fixated. With more stick time that would only improve as I relearn the 30mm eccentricities.

Now if I were to try that in a spitfire I would have no chance, even with a wingman. So for me it is pretty black and white.

There are small windows of opportunity that a spitfire pilot can use to there advantage but most of the time the 109 pilots have it there own way.

Personally I think there are only two ways to solve the current problem either giving the spitfire the 25lb boost which will slightly close the performance difference or my personal preference a G6/AS or G14 is produced.

Regarding altitude Otto this is something that the spitfire struggles currently to benefit from.

Without gentle inputs the wings rip off at high speed so and even when you avoid this outcome the speed drops off at an incredible pace as soon as you level out. A number of times now I have dived on an E/A with a hight advantage and while other aircraft would have sufficient momentum to close in the spitfire just cannot capitalize on a boom and zoom.

-1 I am afraid to say David...

 

 

 

I have been in this situation many times and you are only talking about a 1 on 1 scenario in reality this is rubbish. What you end up with in reality is a group of spitfire desperately turning to avoid the boom and zooms of a series of 109's much akin to a group of fish, a shoal steadily getting worn down.

 

This is what you see online currently and to say that it is frustrating to "have to try again" when your opposition is finding it frustrating to simply stay alive in such a situation is quite outrageous David.

 

Now a P-51 with its speed can help however they can't climb particularly well, unless they retain speed which is not the case in most scenarios I have seen... so again advantage to the red team.

 

 

 

I don't think so, nothing will come close to the Dora in speed down low so that will remain a great threat to the XIV and the K4 will have much the same speed, the 109 much greater fire power with a 30mm cannon and the spit a slight advantage in climb... so I think it will in fact be a lot closer a fight.

 

To say that the status quo is a case of aircraft having an advantage other each other is quite preposterous notion when all you have to do is look at the stats on Air kills from the Burning Skies server....

 

 

http://burning-skies.vioo.com.ua/en/pilots/4/air-rating.html

 

In the top 20 we have 2 allied pilots and even then one of them has a number of his kills flying a 190... clearly your supposed advantage is in fact meaningless!

Dude, it's the skill of the pilots that makes this huge difference.. nothing else.

Btw.. almost all Spits are flying under 3000m.. and as soon as they see a K4 they turn towards it, no matter what...

Keep this in mind: It's NOT the plane.. It'S the PILOT!!

Please respond in this thread...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3063974#post3063974

To a certain degree yes, however if your aircraft has superior speed then you don't have to be a very good pilot to make like hell for a spitfire, hence the number of reds in the top 20.

As I said in the above thread, I haven't properly flown in the 109 for quite sometime and yet was able to jump in it the other day and very quickly shot down 5 aircraft 2 P-51 and 3 Spits. Now if I were to fly it enough to become competent again with the 30mm that number would only increase. Also the workload of the 109 is extremely low you do not have to manage the db605.

So to sum up the only thing you need to do to become a skilled pilot in a 109 is learn how to get deflection shots off with the 30mm and use the speed to get out of a tricky situation. So to sum up you simply cannot say it is all down to the pilot, it is also very much down to the aircraft.

PLEASE CAN A MOD MOVE THE LAST TWO POSTS TO THE NEW THREAD, THANKS

Dude, it's the skill of the pilots that makes this huge difference.. nothing else.

Btw.. almost all Spits are flying under 3000m.. and as soon as they see a K4 they turn towards it, no matter what...

Keep this in mind: It's NOT the plane.. It'S the PILOT!!

Please respond in this thread...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3063974#post3063974

 

To a certain degree yes, however if your aircraft has superior speed then you don't have to be a very good pilot to make life hell for a spitfire, hence the number of reds in the top 20.

 

As I said in the above thread, I haven't properly flown in the 109 for quite sometime and yet was able to jump in it the other day and very quickly shot down 5 aircraft 2 P-51 and 3 Spits. Now if I were to fly it enough to become competent again with the 30mm that number would only increase. Also the workload of the 109 is extremely low you do not have to manage the db605.

 

So to sum up the only thing you need to do to become a skilled pilot in a 109 is learn how to get deflection shots off with the 30mm and use the speed to get out of a tricky situation. So to sum up you simply cannot say it is all down to the pilot, it is also very much down to the aircraft.

Moved to correct thread

Imho of a noobish dogfighter, the current main issues for me would be :

* Problem with stick forces or feedback of these forces (to be confirmed by devs) on Spitfire, making it too prone to blackouts or wings failure. Though honestly, I have not suffered from any of these for a loooong time now, once you know how to be progressive in your inputs, it's fine. OTOH it may hampers my actual reaction (ie I don't pull back on the stick as hard as I could for precaution reasons)

* Undergunned P51D. I don't know if that is a realistic depiction of actual P51D armament, but having to unload that much to kill makes it a nightmare for P51, compared to the other 3.

On most of my engagement with spitfire so far, now I know the engine limitations and flight limitations, even though yes I can't keep up with Axies, the mobility allows for easy avoidance of incoming ennemies. It's a matter of SA and knowing when to react. The only thing that I simply cannot cope with are pilots with very good aim. These kind of people can hit even with the big deflection angle I present them, where the majority of pilot can't (or rely on luck to do so). As far as I can tell, this is actually rather accurate, one of the major component separating normal from exceptional pilots during WWII was their ability to aim.

I really don't find the situation that gloomy, tbh. Not denying an "underpowered" aspect in Allies aircraft, but far from "it's over, ditch your aircraft you have no chance" that I read far too often.

I certainly feels gloomy from my end, I stopped flying about two years ago because the 109 eventually drove off a vast majority of blue players and flying the Dora became a bore...

I had hoped the spitfire would bring back something resembling balance however that is far from the case.

The spitfire has taken the burden off the P-51 for sure so in that respect its release has been positive and the updated P-51 will also improve the situation. The damage model might also improve things as both the 109 and P-51 can fly forever regardless of damage currently.

However there is still a huge question mark above DCS WW2 in my opinion :(

Dude, it's the skill of the pilots that makes this huge difference.. nothing else.

Btw.. almost all Spits are flying under 3000m.. and as soon as they see a K4 they turn towards it, no matter what...

Keep this in mind: It's NOT the plane.. It'S the PILOT!!

The first reason for introducing new and improved fighters in WW2 was to help mediocre pilots shoot down good pilots. With enough performance edge you can neutralize the skill gap. It's the pilot not the plane is something virtual pilots say when they're in the better plane.

We have no evidence that the players flying the 109 are more skilled other than the fact that they shoot down more of their enemies, and their victories beg the question as to whether it is their skill or the aircraft's abilities that makes the difference.

Without additional evidence/argument, it is a good premise that pilot skill is randomly distributed across the 4 WW2 fighters.

Well said Gavagai

Whe never reach that point, every one is statisfied with the match up there is allways a black and white. Spitifire with 25Lbs would literally better in all performance flight parameter then the K4, not to mention the poor guy in his 190.

(This is what someone of the Guys want, simpley the smoke up the bad Guys on the German side no matter how much mistakes they do inflight.)

The Spit is currently a hell of dogfighter, when i Fly Spit i am realy anoyed over the Mission we have in MP the close distance between the maps the Red and the Blue Forces both sides simpley run away to hiding in his AAA when they are in disadvantage.

For Normandy MAP would be G6AS realy wellcome, it solve the speed Problem for the Spit on the other Hand G6 turn performance is better then the K4.

On the other Hand got B&Z the hole day long by P-51 what you can never reach with a G6 sounds after Fun when we get the 71HG.

So hopefully we get near future better DMG Model, and slower 109,190 Model stay with the Allied planes that we have now, and not any overkill Planes.

Unfortunately the K4 is an overkill plane and the Spitfire Mk 14 could be also.

I disagree that the 25 spitfire would swing things in the opposite direction as we can't even use 18lbs all the time and the K4 would still in fact be faster at all altitudes

I agree the current map causes a few problems which is unfortunate

I believe MAD means the spit XIV and not a 25lbs spit IX. I also don't think that 25 lbs would change things significantly in DCS.