AI cheating behavior. Taking all the fun out.

Is this the correct forum?

I mostly use DCS for free flying but sometimes I like to do some dogfighting. :)

However, I have problems enjoying these dogfights as it seems the AI really sucks every inch of performance from the aircraft, and it even goes beyond what is physically possible. This is truly an immersion breaker for me.

The AI has a love for going vertical. All the time. vertical, vertical, vertical. When doing scissors at low speeds,(me in a Fw 190 vs AI P-51D) when I barely have any nose authority left at all, with identical E to my adversary the AI can somehow pull up at 100 knots, go completely vertical, hang in the prop until zero airspeed, swiftly flip the nose downward, no torque effects, nothing. Accelerate very quickly while losing a minimum amount of altitude in the process.

I have even seen the AI F-5E do these vertical maneuvers. Going straight up until zero airspeed, and then, even though no air is moving over the elevators still have authority to push the nose down. It's a jet! How is this possible?

I love this sim, but the AI behavior really is too much.

Please tell me, that it is possible to make the AI "better" than this? :(

Sorry for the rant. I'm not alone in this, am I?

Yes the AI is showing it's age. The AI not only uses strange manoeuvres, but also uses a simple flight model and seems to be a lot more tolerant of g-effects than our virtual selves. I vaguely remember one of the ED devs acknowledged the problem a long time ago, so it's probably on the to-do list. That list is very long so when this will get any work on it is anyone's guess.

No, you are definitely not alone!

If you search a bit on the forums you find this issue mentioned in basically every section of the older planes.

It is a general problem affecting the WW II fighters, as well as the F-86 or the MiG-15 etc.

As Rangi said, it is the AI's use of the SFM, plus some simplified damage modelling seemingly combined with the inability to make any "wrong moves" when flying. The "skill" settings seem to have no effect on the actual flying "skills", but the distance and evasion/defenses against missiles... Which is pretty useless in a WW II fighter, for example.

From what I know, ED is aware of this and Wags mentioned that AI is something they will look into, when the merge to 2.5 is through.

So fingers crossed it isn't too long until then.

Only somewhat balanced gameplay happens in Multiplayer, unfortunately I hate PvP in Multiplayer. I'm your typical Player vs Environment guy. :(

 

However, I have problems enjoying these dogfights as it seems the AI really sucks every inch of performance from the aircraft, and it even goes beyond what is physically possible. This is truly an immersion breaker for me.

 

I agree 100% and this is much higher on my wish list than some of the features that are being added..

The AI opponentes are using scripts probably from Lock On/FC1 times. 2nd problem is SFM, because you have PFM/EFM and it's a lot of calculations for processor and it can't handle more than 1 plane with PFM. In MP it work's like this, everyone has PFM but only for you and your plane it looks normal, for others kinda unnatural (in dogfight it doesn't really matter because you are focused on fight anyway).

Thanks for all the responses guys. :-)

Here's a video of me getting owned by the AI. I use the Oculus rift CV1. I think I hurt my neck trying to keep track of this guy. And all for nothing. I didn't stand a chance. :joystick:

I can only recommend to get into MP. There you won't have these problems. ;)

Yeah, looks like I have to. It's been a while though. Haven't been doing any online dogfighting since IL-2 Forgotten Battles! :)

Beyond DCS 2.5, this is top of my wishlist.

I wonder if improving the AI, and especially revising the damage model, will be given priority when the Normandy map comes out?

It seems to me that if WW2 is to become a popular theatre then these will come to be seen as bigger problems than at the moment...

It's bad enough now but can you imagine trying to shoot down AI with the Spitfires .303s?

Now imagine it for an entire campaign! :-)

+ 10000

Fighting the AI can be really annoying, they're all UFO-s. Also, their damage model is buggod somehow, so they keep flying and fighting even though they have been peppered and are smoking. It's always much easier to down human controlled planes. Such a great sim with such outdated AI...

To be honest this is probably indicative of the lack of game beneath the sim, if you see what I mean.

Once you get beyond all the simulation elements; is there a game worth playing underneath?

Personally I'm not sure there is and I think is why I drop in and out of this sim, although this would require much more thought to discuss in-depth.

Luckily the sim elements are so good (and deep) it gets away with it!

Edit: Anyway I guess what I meant to say was that there have been several good WW2 sims fairly recently with much more gamification, and possibly this contrast will be useful in improving the game underneath the sim.

To be honest this is probably indicative of the lack of game beneath the sim, if you see what I mean.

 

Once you get beyond all the simulation elements; is there a game worth playing underneath?

 

Personally I'm not sure there is and I think is why I drop in and out of this sim, although this would require much more thought to discuss in-depth.

 

Luckily the sim elements are so good (and deep) it gets away with it!

 

Edit: Anyway I guess what I meant to say was that there have been several good WW2 sims fairly recently with much more gamification, and possibly this contrast will be useful in improving the game underneath the sim.

This has not much to do, with "game" aspects. It is and always will be a sandbox simulation of real life.

There is no balancing, drama etc. beyond what mission builders, put into their missions.

Honestly, I have no problem with that, as a real life military career most likely is much more boring and dull than what you usually experience in DCS World.

The issue is, that you immediately know there is something fishy with the AI and damage model when you fly against AI planes and even ground units are, let's say unrealistically hard to come by.

I have no problem to get owned by the AI because he got on my six and get his shot.

What's utterly annoying is, when you finally get at an AI's six, despite their UFO maneuvers, pepper them with guns and missiles and they lost elevators, engine burns, fuel leaks, holes everywhere and they still fly, like nothing happened or even kill you after that! :mad:

I probably put it badly but your example just above us what i mean: the development focus is onsim aspects rather than on game aspects.

Not that i have a problem with this, just that i hope flying vs the ai will get more fun with the focus on smaller calibres the normandy map will encourage.

Edit

what i think of as game aspects are stuff such as ai, damage model, campaigns, atc etc.

We can only hope that one day the AI behavior will be addressed and tweaked.

While I prefer flying with and against human pilots there are times I do fly against AI. That is when I am reminded how much I hate them. Just way to frustrating.

That said, not interested in a "gaming" aspect. For me its all about simulation. If I wanted a game, I would go elsewhere.

Yes, it's very frustrating. However, I managed to "mod" the AI a bit a while back.

Edited the AI part in a couple of different aircraft lua to decrease their performance and ability to turn :music_whistling: And no, it will not pass any type of integrity check...

Yes, it's very frustrating. However, I managed to "mod" the AI a bit a while back.

Edited the AI part in a couple of different aircraft lua to decrease their performance and ability to turn :music_whistling: And no, it will not pass any type of integrity check...

The AI doesn't seem to have an excessively good turn rate. It's the climb rate and low speed vertical maneuvering that beggars belief, as pointed out in the OP.

Did you ever share those mods? I'd be curious to see.

Same here, at least some pointers to the LUAs?

Ok! I'll have a look when I get home from work. Probably won't have the old files, but I can give some pointers. It all started with the B-29. Got tired of it trying to fly flike a fighter when I attacked with my Mig-15, so I made it fly completely straight with no banks or turns (unless shot up)

Sorry for getting your hopes up boys... Just tried modding the BF109 by restricting the Maximum G to 5 and Bank Angle to 30 degrees, did some other tweaks aswell to the AoA. Still going rollercoaster and have no problem flying circles around you. Don't know if some changes to the DCS engine has made the old SFM code irrelevant?

If anyone want to try, just edit the Bf-109-K4.lua (or another aircraft)

Yes the AI is showing it's age. The AI not only uses strange manoeuvres, but also uses a simple flight model and seems to be a lot more tolerant of g-effects than our virtual selves. I vaguely remember one of the ED devs acknowledged the problem a long time ago, so it's probably on the to-do list. That list is very long so when this will get any work on it is anyone's guess.

It should be top of their list, as they are losing me and others, I won't be dazzled by hype over new modules any more, I just want the core game play at least half as good as other titles.

Thanks for all the responses guys. :-)

 

Here's a video of me getting owned by the AI. I use the Oculus rift CV1. I think I hurt my neck trying to keep track of this guy. And all for nothing. I didn't stand a chance. :joystick:

 

Is it me or that P-51 is dogfighting with its rudder?

I don't own any WWII modules, only have experience with FC3 aircraft, but I feel AI there is also pretty bad.

In my opinion, you don't have an actual simulation if you don't simulate real pilots too...

Your pain is shared. The AI fly with a much simpler flight and damage model than us mere humans, so they are basically supermen in flying tanks that seem to never stall.

The stock response is to play against human pilots ;)

Once the AI is on your tail it is pretty hard to break free fro them, would be great to see the balance updated.

Once the AI is on your tail it is pretty hard to break free fro them, would be great to see the balance updated.

just go low, they can't follow you at like 10-20m from the ground, then they're trying to get altitude but still stay on your butt, but won't gun you or fire missiles at you

you just need to know the preocedure of the AI and then it's easy

just go low, they can't follow you at like 10-20m from the ground, then they're trying to get altitude but still stay on your butt, but won't gun you or fire missiles at you

 

you just need to know the preocedure of the AI and then it's easy

Unfortunately this trains very bad tactics... I would rather see the AI adopting realism, than us players adopt their tactics to unrealistic AI. :(