A Proposal for Community Relations between ED & The Community - Page 2 - ED Forums
 


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Old 07-12-2018, 06:07 PM   #11
cichlidfan
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Nineline, it sounds like your doing this work as community manager pro bono, if that's so than you've been cheated.
He is a paid employee of ED.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:40 PM   #12
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zhukov032186, probad; you two are the most amazingly helpful saints I've ever seen. Odin blesses you for your thoughtfulness.
I mean, personally, I feel like they completely missed the point of my original commentary and chose to debate how I presented it. I won't link it here, but this thread has been continued and discussed pretty significantly over on r/Hoggit, and you can see some expanded ideas and discussions there if you'd like to read them.

The fact that these discussions occur with clockwork regularity tells me that the public relations between ED and the community is not as effective as it could be. That may or may not be a priority for ED.

This thread was not, in any way, intended to discuss whether there is a problem with the Multiplayer implementation or with other things, it was simply inteded to say, 'Hey, I see a lot of people are concerned about this! I don't think the response from the community manager was particularly effective at the beginning. What do you (the community) think about handling it this way?'

That way, in short, being: Organize formal communications between server owners/mission designers and ED developers to determine what is causing the problems being reported, and how best to fix them.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:08 PM   #13
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formal communications between server owners/mission designers and ED developers to determine what is causing the problems being reported, and how best to fix them.
This already happens, while I appreciate your efforts, you are taking one misconstrued comment and blowing it into a much large issue, we have done nothing but work to improve communication and bug reporting over the last few months, and have made great bounds there, and as with anything, are always working to be better.

So you keep listing and posting the same things, and these same things are already happening.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:33 PM   #14
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This already happens, while I appreciate your efforts, you are taking one misconstrued comment and blowing it into a much large issue, we have done nothing but work to improve communication and bug reporting over the last few months, and have made great bounds there, and as with anything, are always working to be better.

So you keep listing and posting the same things, and these same things are already happening.
Well, I only had one point to make, and I was just reiterating it to reinforce that.

As always, these comments are my opinion on the matter- there are of course things I have no reason to know about, but it did seem like there was a significant push-back from quite a few people who felt the concerns weren't taken seriously. This is all just an idea for how those complaints can be channeled into something useful and productive.

Your work (@Nineline) is appreciated and I think helps to make the community stronger!
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:42 PM   #15
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seem like there was a significant push-back from quite a few people who felt the concerns weren't taken seriously
"im gonna cry until i get my way"

it's the oldest trick in the book. comes as standard equipment on infants.

what you're proposing under the guise of customer service is in actually the concept of handing over creative vision of the game from qualified, employed professionals to unqualified amateurs.
while yes, this will create a fleeting calm and satisfaction by sating the ultimate powertrip fantasy of the gamer (oh look! im part of the process! im a de facto developer! this is my game! wheee!), how many more games do we have to destroy before we realize this is a horribly irresponsible and self destructive business model?
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:00 PM   #16
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what you're proposing under the guise of customer service is in actually the concept of handing over creative vision of the game from qualified, employed professionals to unqualified amateurs.
while yes, this will create a fleeting satisfaction by sating the ultimate powertrip fantasy of the gamer (oh look! im part of the process! im a de facto developer! this is my game! wheee!), how many more games do we have to destroy before we realize this is a horribly irresponsible and self destructive business model?
Thank you for the edit to tone it down and making a point that I can respond to.

I disagree that what I propose would in any way hand over creative control.

The fact is, this is how major multiplayer servers operate (with highly dynamic missions). If ED cares about the multiplayer component of DCS (and everything I've seen supports that they do care!), this would be a good way to help 1. identify problems in either the code base or common mission design by leveraging the community and 2. allow the community to feel engaged and their concerns recognized.

Yes, done really, really, really, really badly, it could lead to what you're talking about. I'm sure ED has enough sense not to let it get there.

As a public relations person, you talk with the community, listen to them, and then take a look at what you think is important. By identifying major server owners and mission designers, you're more likely to get people who will have intelligent things to comment and who are focused on specific things, which should make the entire exercise more productive.

This isn't something that's limited to game development, feedback from customers is an important part of any company, no matter what their product.

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Old 07-12-2018, 09:53 PM   #17
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The fact that these discussions occur with clockwork regularity tells me that this is the internet

Fixed that for you. Seriously, are you new to the internet or something? People griping about obvious flaws is like... normal. Show me ONE, just ONE online game that doesn't have people bitching about their connections. Show me ONE game that doesn't have people bitching about their FPS.


Show me a thread titled "the sky is blue" and I will link you to the third or fourth comment down titled "No it isn't"
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
Fixed that for you. Seriously, are you new to the internet or something? People griping about obvious flaws is like... normal. Show me ONE, just ONE online game that doesn't have people bitching about their connections. Show me ONE game that doesn't have people bitching about their FPS.


Show me a thread titled "the sky is blue" and I will link you to the third or fourth comment down titled "No it isn't"
Show me a reasoned discussion and I'll show you an ad hominem attack?

I disagree that people are complaining at a 'normal' level in this case. We see plenty of 'I get bad FPS' and 'I get disconnected' threads, and there were even a few in the original threads about the state of DCS multiplayer which were quickly shut down by the people who had concerns about the server codebase. The concerning part is when well-respected server owners and mission developers say, 'This is a problem'. Those are people who SHOULD know. Now, I don't want to derail us with a discussion of if there is a problem- that's completely irrelevant to my proposal.

With this I was proposing a way to improve communications on one issue which would hopefully be beneficial for both the customers and the company. Do you see a particular problem with having, say, a dozen or so well-respected server owners and mission developers get together to chat with ED devs in a formal setting? (I have read the comments on how that could lead to trying to cater to customer whims- I disagreed with it and explained my disagreement above.)

It's a bit less in the spotlight than posting it all over the forums and it could hopefully allow the devs to pinpoint the causes of issues.

I am absolutely not suggesting that this should be the norm for every little problem, nor have I suggested that in any thread. This is one, relatively unique case where the community, in terms of server owners and mission designers, could provide actually valuable input to the programmers on what is going on and where. (Or, alternatively, completely disprove that there's a problem in some cases.)

Certainly logical arguments can be made against this proposal- ED may not have the manpower to dedicate to it. They may already know what's wrong and it just takes time to fix it. They may have alternative solutions. Some of this information was already communicated in the originating threads, so it's reasonably certain that it is already in the works, but I don't think that it negates the value of having additional community interaction.

Again, hey, this is my opinion and take on it. I welcome discussion on it of course but let's be professional? I'll do my best to respond to actual concerns that are brought up about this proposal but otherwise I'm going to just leave it here- at some point ED may or may not become aware of it but the idea's out there.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:21 PM   #19
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What's professionalism got to do with anything? I didn't attack you, though I did make a slightly sarcastic rhetorical comment.

Half the people griping over there are demanding a dedicated server, which was already acknowledged and said as being a priority. They are continuing to gripe about it. Ergo, since they're griping about something they want that they're going to get, it is 'normal griping'.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:34 PM   #20
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What's professionalism got to do with anything? I didn't attack you, though I did make a slightly sarcastic rhetorical comment.

Half the people griping over there are demanding a dedicated server, which was already acknowledged and said as being a priority. They are continuing to gripe about it. Ergo, since they're griping about something they want that they're going to get, it is 'normal griping'.
I'll take that as a good faith reply. Professionalism costs nothing and makes everything easier.

I saw comments about wanting a dedicated server and Wags reply to it, looks like it'll be good stuff. That doesn't necessarily help with the problems that servers are seeing now, unless it's coming pretty soon. Hopefully we'll find that out tomorrow and this is all a moot point!

The proposal to connect ED devs with server owners and mission developers would be intended to resolve current problems which are only seen in specific, though highly popular, scenarios such as high-population, highly-scripted dynamic servers, as well as to do an end-run around the many (pretty ignorant) comments about 'ED doesn't care!' Good PR is something that can't be bought, only nurtured, and it doesn't necessarily pay out directly in sales. But if you've got a whole bunch of people who have seen that ED's worked closely with the community in a specific and highly visible case, now you've got a whole bunch of people who are going to shut down people who say ED doesn't care.

Aside from my point about how I think this would be an effective PR campaign- anyone who thinks ED doesn't care about their product is... not thinking it through, to be nice! It's a relatively small team, I'm pretty sure caring about the quality of their product is a deeply ingrained corporate culture thing otherwise DCS wouldn't have lasted this long or see continuous improvements in quality and content.
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