NevSmith Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 (edited) That's more a question of design philosophy than being an actual advantage. E.g. the Typhoon and the Su-57 both have a conventional stick layout. Well, below someone can read quotes from a real Fighter-Pilot who flew both jets, the F/A-18 AND the Viper/F-16: The Viper's side stick and throttle are marvels of ergonomie design. Flying a side-stick control takes a while to get used to, but once you do, it's a joy. The conformal stick's shape feels very natural (it fits in the hand like a melted candy bar), and it allows easy access to nine of the 16 HOTAS controls. Two fully adjustable forearm rests on the right cockpit bulkhead stabilize and isolate the pilot's arm and wrist, so when rattling around the cockpit during turbulence or going after the bad guy, the pilot's arm won't accidentally move and initiate unwanted control inputs. source: http://www.72ndvfw.org/forum/m/5688083/viewthread/20557312-f16-vs-f18-from-pilot-who-drives-both Edited August 31, 2019 by NevSmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 (edited) Well, below someone can read quotes from a real Fighter-Pilot who flew both jets, the F/A-18 AND the Viper/F-16: Apparently a single pilots opinion doesn't necessarily change a companies design philosophy ;) The side stick turbulence argument is nonsense since every yoke and stick requires quite a bit of force to be moved for that very reason. E.g. with a center stick you can fly with either the left or right hand while the other hand operates various other controls. Edited August 31, 2019 by bbrz i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nooch Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 E.g. with a center stick you can fly with either the left or right hand while the other hand operates various other controls. You can't on a fighter though. The throttle is always on the left side. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 You can't on a fighter though. The throttle is always on the left side. Do you need to keep the hand on the throttles while e.g. adjusting the nav lights? i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nooch Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Do you need to keep the hand on the throttles while e.g. adjusting the nav lights? Oh I see what you mean. I shouldn't post when I am this tired :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drotik Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Well I would say there is a trend for sidestick controls in general, commercial and military aviation. But I also agree that it is mainly a subject of design philosophy. In an airliner or a bizjet crew comfort is the main advantage I think, for fighter jets there are both advantages and disadvantages for each configuration. The Eurofighter is build with a center stick without force feedback and it works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted August 31, 2019 ED Team Share Posted August 31, 2019 Hi all please be nice to each other when posting. Thanks Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veiland Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 I have fssb r3 and i think force sensing sticks are mounted to the side because you primarily use your fingertips to steer so a supported static underarm makes fine adjustment easier. Its really only good for fly by wire planes. Helicopters f.ex are almost impossible. Space Combat games are possible but your hand will get quite the workout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearfoot Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 I've read (so take it with a grain of salt) that one argument for center stick is that it provides a smidgen more support for flying one handed (if, you are injured for e.g.). Even if true, probably less of a concern now than WW2 -era due to type of damage incurred in the modern era. In the desktop sim world, sidestick makes for a more compact setup for sure. However, the 20cm extension can only be used on a center stick, and that 20cm extension gives you a lot more control and precision for the constant small microinputs/corrections you need when flying helos. Or the F-14B for that matter! Just my 2C non-real world opinion ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireNZ Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 E.g. with a center stick you can fly with either the left or right hand while the other hand operates various other controls. From using the FSSB that would prob be the main disadvantage and thing I have had to work around the most. In VR I can swap to my left hand to fly and turn right around to my right to look behind me with a ctr-mounted stick, however with the side-stick the ability to swap hands isn't really possible (I have tried!) and your ability to turn and look behind you is greatly reduced due to having to keep your right hand out beside your thigh. Obviously it limits how far you can turn to the left in your seat also as you still need to reach the side-stick with your right hand - whereas before due to it being in the ctr you could turn your upper body a lot further. As far as using controls - with so much being on the HOTAS and the ICP is operated by the left hand also, that isn't such a big deal. Just my 0.02c Asus Maximus VIII Hero Alpha| i7-6700K @ 4.60GHz | nVidia GTX 1080ti Strix OC 11GB @ 2075MHz| 16GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB 3200Mhz DDR4 CL14 | Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2 SSD | Corsair Force LE 480GB SSD | Windows 10 64-Bit | TM Warthog with FSSB R3 Lighting Base | VKB Gunfighter Pro + MCG | TM MFD's | Oculus Rift S | Jetseat FSE [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupra Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 Why do you want to grip the stick with the left hand? Also in F/A-18 and others it is made to be held with right, left handed it does not make sence. And if you are sitting in an F-16 you understand very fast why the layout is as it is. On the video it looks big, but it is extreme small there. Youi have the control of the jet on the right hand, and on the right side there are no really important panels or switches you would need much. Most of them can be used my using the AP. And all the combat stuff is located on left side. If you have your hands on the throttle you are even able to use switches and knobs without putting your hands off the grip. CMDS function and so on can be used while hand on the throttle. ICP inputs are extreme fast by using you left hand, jus a few cm above the throttle. You even do not have to look at the ICP during making inputs because you can make them blind. Same with switches. If you once have learned where a switch is located and which type of head he has you do not need to look at those stuff. You can look out the whole time, having the stick on the right hand and do all the inputs with left… switching MFDßs and so on, all can be done with left. That is why a lot of gauges are mounted right and switches left ;) DCS F-16C Blk. 40/42 :helpsmilie: Candidate - 480th VFS - Cupra | 06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBS17 Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 Regarding the F-16 my only problem with the Hotas is its movement, it uses pressure which is extremely dangerous, if it had more movement then it would be safer to use. It does not matter if its centre or side stick.:joystick: [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupra Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 You can fly the F-16 sim also very smooth with every other stick too ;) I am actual forced to a Warthog Stick on my desktop.. and it works fine too ;) DCS F-16C Blk. 40/42 :helpsmilie: Candidate - 480th VFS - Cupra | 06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWeasel303 Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 Regarding the F-16 my only problem with the Hotas is its movement, it uses pressure which is extremely dangerous, if it had more movement then it would be safer to use. It does not matter if its centre or side stick.:joystick: Is this opinion directed at the translation of a pressure sensitive fly by wire side stick in game to your physical HOTAS setup for your rig or the control setup in real life of the real F-16? System: Lian Li 011 Dynamic Evo / Ryzen 5900X / 128gb Trident Z 3600mHz / ASUS TUF X570 / Lian Li Galahad 360 AIO / Asus Tuf RTX 3080ti / Asus Rog 1000w PSU / TM Warthog + TM Pedals Modules/Terrains: All but the Mig-19, MB-339, P-47, I-16, CE II, and Yak-52 IRL: USAF F-16C AGR Crew Chief / Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Regarding the F-16 my only problem with the Hotas is its movement, it uses pressure which is extremely dangerous, if it had more movement then it would be safer to use. It does not matter if its centre or side stick.:joystick: :huh: What? Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javelina1 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I've been flying side stick in my sims for years. Love it that way. MSI MAG Z790 Carbon, i9-13900k, NH-D15 cooler, 64 GB CL40 6000mhz RAM, MSI RTX4090, Yamaha 5.1 A/V Receiver, 4x 2TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe, 1x 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD, Win 11 Pro, TM Warthog, Virpil WarBRD, MFG Crosswinds, 43" Samsung 4K TV, 21.5 Acer VT touchscreen, TrackIR, Varjo Aero, Wheel Stand Pro Super Warthog, Phanteks Enthoo Pro2 Full Tower Case, Seasonic GX-1200 ATX3 PSU, PointCTRL, Buttkicker 2, K-51 Helicopter Collective Control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vatikus Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 to add what has already been written regarding advantage of center stick.. there is also this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid18120 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I wonder what he's pushing with the left hand that required him this quite unnatural position [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Simming since 2005 My Rig: Gigabyte X470 Aorus Ultra Gaming, AMD Ryzen7 2700X, G.Skill RipJaws 32GB DDR4-3200, EVGA RTX 2070 Super Black Gaming, Corsair HX850 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) Pedal turn 9zbi8FrtczA?start=268 Edited September 3, 2019 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McTschegsn Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I wonder what he's pushing with the left hand that required him this quite unnatural position Looks like he is adjusting the camera to look forward and the back again to me. In the video you can see: Left hand moves to stick (moving whatever knob / device is mounted there - additionally to the stick maybe) Camera pans forward and the backwards. Left hand returns to throttle... Thats what it looks like for me. In thrust we trust :thumbup: Falls jemand Montags Abends Lust hat mit uns zusammen zu fliegen und Spass zu haben (Anfänger sind auch herzlich willkommen) kann gerne auf unserer Website: https://www.jg-frankonia.de vorbeischauen oder sich direkt bei uns im Discord melden: https://discord.gg/vHEJf3c Eigene Server und viel Spass sind vorhanden :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vatikus Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Looks like he is adjusting the camera to look forward and the back again to me. In the video you can see: Left hand moves to stick (moving whatever knob / device is mounted there - additionally to the stick maybe) Camera pans forward and the backwards. Left hand returns to throttle... Thats what it looks like for me. Not really. Please look at the video mvsgas had posted where the pilot is explaining what he is doing. He is using his left hand to help with pulling and keeping stick in the desired max deflection. Real control stick has much greater force needed than what we use in games (most joystick have max force what is the breakout force in a real plane :) ) and to go beyond the soft stop it requires excees of 10kgf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid18120 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 ... and to go beyond the soft stop it requires excees of 10kgf. That's quite a pull :joystick: it's really eye opening to see the actual physical "struggle" a pilot has to go in some maneuvers, something we can only imagine while playing TopGun in our favorite FlightSim [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Simming since 2005 My Rig: Gigabyte X470 Aorus Ultra Gaming, AMD Ryzen7 2700X, G.Skill RipJaws 32GB DDR4-3200, EVGA RTX 2070 Super Black Gaming, Corsair HX850 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 it's really eye opening to see the actual physical "struggle" a pilot has to go in some maneuvers, something we can only imagine while playing TopGun in our favorite FlightSim I believe that many flightsim pilots underestimate the force required to move the controls IRL. E.g. in the early 1950s the maximum force to apply full rudder was limited to 180lbs and this has been changed later to 'only' 150lbs. Can you imagine how tiring it is to fly e.g. one engine out with that kind of force required, not for a few seconds, but a few minutes? i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nooch Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 I know a guy who has flown on an F-16 once and he said the controls felt surprisingly light. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireNZ Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 I believe that many flightsim pilots underestimate the force required to move the controls IRL. E.g. in the early 1950s the maximum force to apply full rudder was limited to 180lbs and this has been changed later to 'only' 150lbs. Can you imagine how tiring it is to fly e.g. one engine out with that kind of force required, not for a few seconds, but a few minutes? That is what rudder trim is for :thumbup:. Yes the pilot is all over the trim at engine failure, but they quickly wind in the appropriate rudder trim and that takes care of most of it. In the case of a double engine failure on one side there may not be enough trim, but the additional rudder required is not that bad depending on the control system assistance. The fun part was when we had a rudder booster hydraulic failure combined with a critical engine out during take-off (so full power required to climb away) and you watch the pilots get the old leg-shake holding in correct rudder till they get a chance to take their hand off the controls to wind in the trim. Asus Maximus VIII Hero Alpha| i7-6700K @ 4.60GHz | nVidia GTX 1080ti Strix OC 11GB @ 2075MHz| 16GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB 3200Mhz DDR4 CL14 | Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2 SSD | Corsair Force LE 480GB SSD | Windows 10 64-Bit | TM Warthog with FSSB R3 Lighting Base | VKB Gunfighter Pro + MCG | TM MFD's | Oculus Rift S | Jetseat FSE [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts