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Old 10-10-2018, 06:26 PM   #1
Saskuatch
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Default Dogfight tips?

Hi guys, I got the F-5 some weeks back, and I took some time to learn how to fly it and now I'm testing the combat with it. I'm kinda new to DCS overall but not new to flight sims. I set up a mission with just intercepting a Mig-21 head on that is armed with just guns at 15,000 feet. I am able to kill it either with a sidewinder or guns shot on the head one pass no problem, but I struggle a lot after the merge if I choose not to kill it on the first pass.



If he goes up for an Immelmann I just go down get some distance, pull back and hit it with a sidewinder, I found that if I get 2+ miles of separation between the planes I can turn around fast enough to hit him with a missile. At closer ranges I can never seem to get behind the Mig or even get a good lag pursuit going, it feels like I can never catch up to it in a turn. I also can never get behind him if we get into a scissors, it always seems like the AI adjusts its speed too well and is always able to have the best position in a horizontal or vertical scissors. I don't know if its just cause the AI is broken or if I need to be doing other stuff with the F-5.


Any suggestions? I'm going to give multiplayer a shot soon too, kinda scared of stumbling into some F-15s, 18s, mirages, 27s etc. in the servers with my little F-5 haha.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:53 PM   #2
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A.Is respond instantaneously to your stick inputs with no delay so it can pose somewhat of a problem, especially when their aircraft is very maneuvarable like the Mig-21. You just have to get used to their tactics and eventually you will be able to defeat them. But it's not easy, especially with the F-5, which is not the best dogfighter...
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:16 PM   #3
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Ok, I felt it was something like that, there are definitely ways I've noticed I could finish the fight, I was just trying to force a guns kill from behind them. I will definitely try my luck with human opponents for practice too then.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:26 PM   #4
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Jump on the cold war server, that usually descends into a Mig-21 vs F-5 airquake. It's a punishing way to learn but you'll learn a lot, very fast. Like Axelerator said - the AI physics model is simplified and it's not really a fair fight.

In terms of actual tips:

- The Mig is good at speed but get him into a slow turn fight and he'll have to extend or fall out of the sky.

- Never follow a Mig vertical, they have enormous power to weight.

- Switching to manual flap control and 0 degree flaps can buy you a bit of energy at the expense of lift if you get caught out.

- Stay away from applying pitch and roll simultaneously in a fight, it'll bleed energy REALLY fast. You can use a bit of rudder to induce roll while pitching if you need to.

Some random tips. A good thing might be to record a few dogfights of yours and post them here for critique. There are some seriously good dogfighters around here.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:13 PM   #5
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Smooth input is required to maintain energy. And as mentioned, use rudder to turn at high AoA.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownSIX View Post
Jump on the cold war server, that usually descends into a Mig-21 vs F-5 airquake. It's a punishing way to learn but you'll learn a lot, very fast. Like Axelerator said - the AI physics model is simplified and it's not really a fair fight.

In terms of actual tips:

- The Mig is good at speed but get him into a slow turn fight and he'll have to extend or fall out of the sky.

- Never follow a Mig vertical, they have enormous power to weight.

- Switching to manual flap control and 0 degree flaps can buy you a bit of energy at the expense of lift if you get caught out.

- Stay away from applying pitch and roll simultaneously in a fight, it'll bleed energy REALLY fast. You can use a bit of rudder to induce roll while pitching if you need to.

Some random tips. A good thing might be to record a few dogfights of yours and post them here for critique. There are some seriously good dogfighters around here.

Excellent tips, thanks!
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:12 PM   #7
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If you haven't read Peter Shaw's "Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering" and you're serious about learning BFM definitely look it up. I don't think I can link it here but you can just google it
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:28 AM   #8
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Well, I just got off the cold war server, after getting blind sided by a 21 while flying at 20,000 over the mountains. I jumped on another one, contacted awacs, saw a 21 on my rwr first rather than my radar and then immediately made visual contact, while I was dropping the fuel tank I got a launch warning, got tone on launched one myself and went defensive immediately. Didn't get hit but I lost track of that one and not sure if I splashed it as I went for cover around the mountains.


Not the guns kill I'm looking for but exciting non the less.
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelerator View Post
A.Is respond instantaneously to your stick inputs with no delay so it can pose somewhat of a problem, especially when their aircraft is very maneuvarable like the Mig-21. You just have to get used to their tactics and eventually you will be able to defeat them. But it's not easy, especially with the F-5, which is not the best dogfighter...
this isnt true at all. F5 IS a better dogfighter than the Mig21. This isnt just DCS expereince. Even IRL, the Soviets came to the conclusion based on thier Vietnamese F5E evaluation that this was superior to a Mig21 in a close in dogifght. The recommended strategy was to avoid extnded turnfights with F5's and to rely on energy advantage and overall superior Thurst to weight advantage. Forcing and F5 to go vertical would mean the Advantage in a fight went to the Mig

When you arent dealing with an AI super simplified FM itsa different story but if looking at the actuall FM as when flown bu Mig21 has worse characteristics for dogfighting tan the F5.

a) non existant rearwards visibility.


b) Small Delta Wings. Itl turn nicely at high speeds, but Bleed its speed quite fast, and if a pilot neglects to keep his eye on his Speed an AOA warnings, and alows the speed to anywhere get below 500 KM/H this thing stalls like rock if attempting to maneuver at said speeds, and recovering from stall in a mig is less forgiving than the F5.


This is what limits the migs true dogfight potential compared to the F5. In typical Horizontal fight, the F5 has the edge.
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Last edited by Kev2go; 10-13-2018 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownSIX View Post
Jump on the cold war server, that usually descends into a Mig-21 vs F-5 airquake. It's a punishing way to learn but you'll learn a lot, very fast. Like Axelerator said - the AI physics model is simplified and it's not really a fair fight.

In terms of actual tips:

- The Mig is good at speed but get him into a slow turn fight and he'll have to extend or fall out of the sky.

- Never follow a Mig vertical, they have enormous power to weight.

- Switching to manual flap control and 0 degree flaps can buy you a bit of energy at the expense of lift if you get caught out.

- Stay away from applying pitch and roll simultaneously in a fight, it'll bleed energy REALLY fast. You can use a bit of rudder to induce roll while pitching if you need to.

Some random tips. A good thing might be to record a few dogfights of yours and post them here for critique. There are some seriously good dogfighters around here.
^

This
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