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P-51 vs 109


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Allied pilots felt the same as you :)

 

Pilot wants 80" hg to catch jets, complaining to the devs in his report :)

 

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lol and those jets ware even going relatively slow if he was able to keep up. Probably didn't even know he was there lol

 

Top speed of the 262 at SL was 840 km/h, the P-51 could probably just scratch 615 km/h at 75" Hg.


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Cool, are we getting a 1.98ata K-4 too then?
Honestly, I hope not. And the 109 doesn't need it anyways.

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Scared? :)
Privelaged?

No, the K4 is already enough as it is, it doesn't need to be buffed up any more. It already has an advantage when on a level playing field, it doesn't need a boost. Then it'd just be ridiculous.

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Scared? :)

 

Scared or not its even less realistic than K-4s presence over Normandy. There isnt any record of how many aircraft used it for all we know is that it was cleared around March 1945. But how many airfields had acess to C3 fuel for it, how many aircraft were serviceable and how many aircraft used it in combat ? No record.

DCS stands for realism, lets keep it that way.

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Solution is not to make things even less realistic, but attempt to make them more. 190 A-8, Mosquito, 109 G (Ai only for now) certainly help with that.

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Keep your finger crossed, there will be 109 G as Ai. Im sure eventually it will turn into a flyable bird. 109 G-6/AS would be amazing to have. And P-51B to pair it with.

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A P-51B/C would be awesome. But if it took them 4 years already just to remove one panel in the cockpit and shave off an antenna we may be waiting a while :P

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

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Well. I hope to see one day Berlin Express in game :)

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Well. I hope to see one day Berlin Express in game :)

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+1 :thumbup:

 

A B/C Mustang with the Malcolm Hood would be amazing. Lighter and faster than the D and if it gets the higher octane fuel it will be incredible. Plus no fancy tail radar or Gyro sight doo dads, sounds like a hell of a fun time in a dogfight!

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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There were issues with yaw stability when going from the Razorback to bubbletop variant. The P-47 had this as well. In both cases it was fixed by adding a dorsal fin in front of the vertical stab (the little extra bit of surface area extending forward from the bottom of the vertical tailplane).

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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  • 2 weeks later...
A P-51B/C would be awesome. But if it took them 4 years already just to remove one panel in the cockpit and shave off an antenna we may be waiting a while :P

 

The P51's great attributes seem to have been removed or rather neglected by DCS, its wings/flight control surfaces fall off at 505mph. Here is a classic example. The wings don't fall off at all. The P51 has hundreds of accounts of encountering compress ability well over that figure. So why have all the great traits been removed/not included on the P51. If I read the reports correctly they chased 190s /109s in a dive until the 190s/109s wings fell off. I like the fact that you need to be mindful of speed but Vne is a factor of flutter and the P51's flutter was mild compared to other WW2 Axis planes. So one of the p51s best defensive measures was to dive away. The K4 can climb faster as your initial dive is limited and you cant zoom climb as far then the turn fight ensures you get nailed with a prop Gov failure. They wont fight above 24 K because they are disadvantaged in turn and climb. Why have a Prop Gov failure anytime a round hits the P51s Massive propellor? The prop gov is a small component and located in an area that is very hard to damage. I fly the 51 a fair bit in Multiplayer and find that to be the most annoying. The 109/190s have a field day. Why not have this failure modelled on all the planes? Because "No one would fly them". Bring on 75 or 80 inches in the D model fix the damage model to be more even. And don't start me on the stall of the K4. The 109 was notorious for little or no warning on the stall yet the newby 109 flyers can pull that plane to its limit at 800 feet AGL and it has almost no accelerated stall. Yes it turns better, climbs better is lighter and had heaps more power. Power is heat, heat is death to an engine, The P51s auto Oil door is not working correctly. If you climb at 170mph at 46 inches 2700RPM in auto the oil will go to the red line. Sorry I would not accept this as a mechanic and pilot, as that is the P51's max cont power at best rate. Come on guys if you open the door it cools down. Why have an automated system that is Diss abled to the extent that it is? Bring on 2019 and fix WW2 and watch the sale figures soar! My 2 cents worth for 2018, 362nd Digger

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Will any of these threads ever not devolve into whining about how horribly outmatched you people think the Mustang is? :doh:

 

If I read the reports correctly they chased 190s /109s in a dive until the 190s/109s wings fell off.

 

And Hub Zemkes Pony shed both its wings and spit him out because he flew through a storm.... Should the Mustang explode everytime you see a cloud in DCS? The only reason you can over G the wings on a Pony and Spit easier than the 109 in DCS is because the malnourished German K-4 pilot is too weak to pull the stick back far enough to reach that many Gs at high speed. Play with the trim in the 109 and you can do it as well.

 

I agree the 505mph limit seems a bit conservative, but its not a huge disadvantage. I havent tested what speeds the other aircraft fall apart at but IIRC its with a similar margin over their theoretical vne. Either way just watch the airspeed in a dive and pull the throttle back at some point. Never caused me any problems after I figured out that the red line is there for a reason. The 109 is a freight train at that speed anyway, just wobble the elevators a little like all the other clowns and you're pretty much invincible no matter how close he is behind you.

 

They wont fight above 24 K because they are disadvantaged in turn and climb.

 

More of a mission design thing. No reason to be up there. No one fights you guys up there because you go on to a dogfight server where the bases are next to each other and 90% of players are at low alt and climb to the moon wondering why there is no one willing to spend 15 minutes climbing just to have you zoom down out of the blue yonder one time and then turn tail and run to airbase flak. Everyone can fly how they want, but don't act surprised when people get bored of that and decide to go fight someone else instead.

 

Why have a Prop Gov failure anytime a round hits the P51s Massive propellor?

 

Sh#t DCS damage model is sh#t. This is nothing new and hardly a mustang only problem. The 109 goes into a spin everytime the rudder takes a single .50 round....? Just wait "2 weeks" new DM is in testing :smilewink: .

 

Bring on 75 or 80 inches in the D model fix the damage model to be more even.

 

Now you open a whole can of worms about balancing, which will throw most people here into a tailspin about "its a simulator" and "historical accuracy". Either way Sithspawn already said that ED is working on high octane fuel for the Pony. My guess is it will be the 72" version, which IRL AFAIK was used only by the 8th AF based in France for a period between mid 44 and early-mid 45. 75" was tested IIRC but not operational and Ive never heard anything about 80 inches on a USAF Mustang except for some anecdotes about Iwo Jima (Maybe RAF ones had it idk).

 

And don't start me on the stall of the K4. The 109 was notorious for little or no warning on the stall yet the newby 109 flyers can pull that plane to its limit at 800 feet AGL and it has almost no accelerated stall

 

Blatantly false. There are plenty of pilot comments about the 109 IRL being extremely well mannered when it comes to stalls. Many have said that it was next to impossible to stall without doing it intentionally. As long as you are coordinated the slats will be out evenly and the inner wing will stall first and the aircraft sort of mushes into the stall till you put the stick forward. If anything I've heard more stories about the Pony having a tendency to aggressively drop wings during stalls. If you ask me they all seem a bit too tame but I also havent flown the real things so who knows. Its a simulator, anything post stall gets far more difficult to model anyway, and DCS (as well as any other computer sim) is not perfect.

 

As far as how things are in DCS, I have flown both more than enough to tell you that the Pony is much nicer to fly all around, no doubt about it. The mustang is nice and gentle and reacts well at all speeds, all the controls are harmonious and at least with my FFB stick the stall limit is very predictable, which makes flying right on the edge very pleasant in the Mustang.

 

The 109 is more like taking a spoon to your cake batter and thrashing around in it till something happens. Usually you have to make much larger control movements to get anywhere in it. Being uncoordinated makes a much larger difference and its harder to figure out how much rudder you need as well. Particularly in slow vertical loops or hammerheads shes very finnicky, if you don't pop the stick forward at just the right moment shell fall backwards instead of doing what you want it to.

 

Yes the 109 turns better, but if you fly the pony decently you'll find you can outturn the vast majority of 109 pilots online. Most people use little to no rudder at all and rip around at the controls like gorillas at a banana. Of course in this case the lighter airplane will win. If you fly the mustang smoothly and coordinatedly with a little bit of flaps (also take ~40% fuel) in turns you'll find she turns almost exactly as well as a 109. At that point once they see they aren't outturning you they will panic and you'll see that 109s wings start wobbling back and forth and then hes just waiting to eat a load of .50s. For an airplane that weighs 2 tons more and has significantly less power thats not half bad, and it really speaks to the aerodynamic quality of the Mustang.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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I am by no means a A/A pilot, have always been a ground pounder, but I love the stang.

so, air to air for me is pretty alien, but in both the dogfight scenarios I have beaten the 190, and the 109, not all the time but an 80% success I would say.

my problem is I think she turns to slow then flips over, but that is due to inexperience flying her too slow, not watching all the gauges, now......I have started to use combat flaps!!

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A P-51B/C would be awesome. But if it took them 4 years already just to remove one panel in the cockpit and shave off an antenna we may be waiting a while :P

The 109 it has both ailerons shot off and out turns the P51 with no damage, Thats the point i make. The rudder turns it "Far" more than it actually could in real life I have placed hits on the 109 and it keeps flying without regard to the damage and out turns out climbs out dives. The P51 is awesome and I love flying it. I just wish the DM was even for the type. The 47 Jug was a tank


Edited by NineLine
removed 1.1 and 1.15 violations
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The 109 it has both ailerons shot off and out turns the P51 with no damage, Thats the point i make. The rudder turns it "Far" more than it actually could in real life I have placed hits on the 109 and it keeps flying without regard to the damage and out turns out climbs out dives. The P51 is awesome and I love flying it. I just wish the DM was even for the type. The 47 Jug was a tank

 

Hence the reason so much work is currently being done to the Damage Model.

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As far as how things are in DCS, I have flown both more than enough to tell you that the Pony is much nicer to fly all around, no doubt about it. The mustang is nice and gentle and reacts well at all speeds, all the controls are harmonious and at least with my FFB stick the stall limit is very predictable, which makes flying right on the edge very pleasant in the Mustang.

 

The 109 is more like taking a spoon to your cake batter and thrashing around in it till something happens. Usually you have to make much larger control movements to get anywhere in it. Being uncoordinated makes a much larger difference and its harder to figure out how much rudder you need as well. Particularly in slow vertical loops or hammerheads shes very finnicky, if you don't pop the stick forward at just the right moment shell fall backwards instead of doing what you want it to.

 

+1

 

The 109 is by far the most difficult DCS WW2 aircraft to dogfight in, especially at low speed. The thing is never in trim and it requires buckets of rudder. It's a real pig...in a good way. And while it might be able to turn inside a P-51 you really have to put the work in.

 

In summary....ED, do more WW2 :)

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In summary....ED, do more WW2 :)

 

I've wanted to see someone else say those words for a long time!

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Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8

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I've wanted to see someone else say those words for a long time!

 

The 109E at 400 MPH the pilot should have Very Stiff Aileron control to the point where pulling with all his strength can only apply 1/5th Aileron with the time to bank 45 Deg being 4 seconds

This is from Test flights carried out on a captured 109E. Dose anyone know if this was addressed in later models? High speed dives where not the 109's strengths?

 

ref http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109E_UKtrials/Morgan.html

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