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P-51 vs 109


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"It will never happen but what would happen if you took the best P-51 pilot in the war and put him against the best 109 pilot. in the war? One on one. Who wins?"

 

Good question. I read a study once, Bud Anderson vs some other Experten (cannot recall which one) on rate of scoring, and it was about even. I know he wasn't the best, but he was up there with 18.5 or so. The Luftwaffe was meeting the enemy more than any Allied air corps, so you they went by how often a pilot saw enemy planes. It wasn't a one pilot study either, there were others thrown in but I cannot recall who else was there.

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It was stated some time ago that the current P-51 is a Pacific variant(P-51D-30NA), and that it would be updated to a more appropriate European variant (P-51D-25NA). Not much else on details right now.

 

Who would do that? ED's resources are bound to Hornet and modern stuff aren't they?

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No, they have people for WWII work as well.

 

 

 

 

i would be interested if there is staff dedicated to ww2 and working exclusively on the warbirds and maps...and how many are they? as a guy who is almost only interested in the ww2 content in dcs, it was sobering to read that they stopped working on the damage model because of the yak52. there was an interview with yo-yo where he mentioned it would take them about 5months to develop a warbird....but the sad truth we are facing is that the actual pace is 4times longer...

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  • 2 weeks later...
i would be interested if there is staff dedicated to ww2 and working exclusively on the warbirds and maps...and how many are they? as a guy who is almost only interested in the ww2 content in dcs, it was sobering to read that they stopped working on the damage model because of the yak52. there was an interview with yo-yo where he mentioned it would take them about 5months to develop a warbird....but the sad truth we are facing is that the actual pace is 4times longer...

 

 

The Yak-52 was /is more important than the damage model?

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The 109 in this is both using the 97 octane fuel and the MW-50 injection? I've heard elsewhere that it was more commonly C3 or MW-50 injection to spread the performance boosts around, and without those, the K-4 was not much better than the G-6.

 

I'm not far enough in to test it, but I e heard that the Merlin P-51 could do a high speed cruise on lean, so could do quite a bit of its circuit at ~400 mph TAS. I also suspect that the aircraft's equilibrium speed is considerably higher than its listed Max speed. If either or both of those are correct, I would expect in a combat escort engagement, one would typically see the P-51s dropping in at 450+ and even the K-4s climbing in at 350mph. Pair that up with the low shell velocity on the MK108 and the ammo count on the 6x.50s and the 109s are going to be at a serious disadvantage.

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No C3 in DCS. Whether it was used in real life has been debated to death on many forums, many times and usually never goes anywhere useful.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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Cool. I don't have a dog in that hunt, though I do think it would be interesting to have the different fuel grades modelled, though I'll write a separate post on the wish-list forum.

 

Has anyone tested the equilibrium speeds of the two planes? I'm guessing that the Bf-109K-4 hits it, but that the P-51 overheats before it gets there without a dive, but I'm not sufficiently skilled to test it here yet.

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The post has been made many times before, mostly by mustang pilots complaining that the Pony sucks at 61" and the 109 is OP or something similar. The answer is always maybe in 2 weeks. Officially ED has mentioned redoing the mustang to be more suitable for the ETO but if that just means an earlier block with different electronics or gunsights or whatever, or if it includes fuel grades no one knows. Either way as is usual for DCS, we know very little, and it probably wont be here soon.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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The Yak-52 was /is more important than the damage model?

 

The Yak-52 was/is a contract job for a private customer that would've been done anyway even if they hadn't received the permit to release it in public.

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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When it comes to the player piloted P-51 vs the AI 109 the 51 has no chance. I do realize that this is partly because of the sfm the 109 uses but in reality was the 109 really that much better than the 51? I mean how could we have won the war if that was the case? Does ed plan to tweak the 109’s flight model to make it beatable in a dogfight?
Because it's not that simple. Yes Bf109K4 is the ultimate 109 and a beast, though they were produced in relatively low numbers (less than 1000 IIRC) and that spread from September-October 1944 till the end of the war. Plus pilots coming from schools were really slaughter meat to experienced pilots. Plus, numbers were overwhelming to those dates with hundreds of P-51, 47, 38 and whatever escorting also hundreds of bombers every day while defences could put airborne only a handful of machines.

 

 

I mean, the WWII has to be seen as a whole event and many aspects need to be taken in consideration better than raw performance of a single model of aircraft.

 

 

Anyway with regards to the sim. In can be beaten, just you need to know your machine and the machine you're facing. Go to your best flight envelope as people said and try not to fight out of it, that's how air combat is done IRL indeed. You can't just through yourself in a T&B dogfight at treetop level and expect to win the battle. Well, you could in a Spitfire :D, but not the Mustang :thumbup: .

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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You can do it in the Mustang too if you do it right :P

 

Also I think it was 1700 K-4s built in total actually. Almost twice as many as Spit XIV interestingly enough.... How many of them saw action though is maybe a different story.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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viewpost.gif low shell velocity on the MK108 and the ammo count on the 6x.50s and the 109s are going to be at a serious disadvantage.

Highly debatable. The MK108 may have a lower velocity, but the MG131 13mm with 300 rnds per gun certainly doesn't, and while there are just 2 of those, they are mounted right in the nose removing the need for a lot of harmonization, and like the P38, that centralized firepower makes up for a lot. Also, the 30mm Mk108 round was lethal if it hit, all it took was usually a single hit to destroy the average allied fighter, and 2 or 3 to drop even the 4 engine bombers. There is a YT video of a Mk108 30mm being tested on a Hurricane, look what that single round does in that vid (it blows the wing pretty much right off IIRC).

 

 

The 6 50s had a lot of ammunition in the P51, well, the inner 2 guns in each wing did at least, but they still had the convergence issue like all wing mounted MG and cannon, while that nose centralized firepower in the 109 didn't.

 

 

edit - found the video, it was a Spitfire not a Hurricane in the test, but that single round would have been all she wrote.

 

 

 

 

 

Great comments in this thread, always interesting. One thing I like to consider is the amount of fuel on board the 51 and 109 if they ever met up for 1v1 fights. The P51 even without drop tanks carried a massive amount of gas in both wing tanks and that tank crammed in behind the seat pretty much. I'd bet the P51 had a lot better maneuverability, climb rate, nose pointability, turn rate and radius, when those fuselage tanks were empty and the wing tanks were down to about 1/2 full each or less, sort of "on the way home" amounts of fuel left. Both planes full internal fuel, the P51 probably had nearly 2x the range that the 109k4 did. Considering that and the P51's capability, it's pretty incredible.

 

 

Read a lot of Luftwaffe pilots who said they much preferred the G10 (similar engine performance to the K4) with it's 20mm instead of the 30mm gun, as it was much more reliable, and that plane pointed around much better than the K4.


Edited by Gman109

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:doh:

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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