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DCS Mustang Developer Notes


EvilBivol-1

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You know how you're supposed to raise the throttle 1 inch before you start? Don't do that. Keep it at idle and start the P-51D. It starts and idles fine. No stalls, no stuttering engine, etc. That's all I mean.

 

It was discussed earlier and the possibility was thrown out there that they *might* return to the PFM to tweak starting behavior of engines (low-RPM). It's not something that would be required by any means to enjoy the aircraft, but I always thought it'd be cool to FEEL the merlin engine starting up a bit less... perfectly.

 

:thumbup: :pilotfly: :)

 

This is something that A2A's p51d, and all of their props, model very plausibly. Would really like to see it implemented that way in DCS...

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This is something that A2A's p51d, and all of their props, model very plausibly. Would really like to see it implemented that way in DCS...

 

Seconded. :thumbup:

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I think it would also be nice eye-candy if when the starter is activated the propeller turns at a far slower, more realistic rate. Currently it spins at about 400 RPM--it's really hard to tell without doing a slow-motion count.

 

Leave the fuel booster and magnetos off and just activate the starter to demonstrate this.

 

I've seen a number of videos where start up procedures in the RW are demonstrated. They mention that you're supposed to turn the prop 6 blades--one actually counted them in the video--with magnetos and fuel booster off, and the prop is turning really slowly, like about 15-20 RPM. This is to get oil distributed on the barrings in the engine before the initial ignition.

 

After 6 blades, without pausing turning the engine with the starter, mags and booster are turned on and you start priming--one guy said, you've got all your fingers busy during startup :D--and after a couple more blades pass you get your first ignition and then the prop starts to take-off.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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  • 5 months later...
I think it would also be nice eye-candy if when the starter is activated the propeller turns at a far slower, more realistic rate. Currently it spins at about 400 RPM--it's really hard to tell without doing a slow-motion count.

 

Leave the fuel booster and magnetos off and just activate the starter to demonstrate this.

 

I've seen a number of videos where start up procedures in the RW are demonstrated. They mention that you're supposed to turn the prop 6 blades--one actually counted them in the video--with magnetos and fuel booster off, and the prop is turning really slowly, like about 15-20 RPM. This is to get oil distributed on the barrings in the engine before the initial ignition.

 

After 6 blades, without pausing turning the engine with the starter, mags and booster are turned on and you start priming--one guy said, you've got all your fingers busy during startup :D--and after a couple more blades pass you get your first ignition and then the prop starts to take-off.

 

That is a normal procedure fir a radial engine. I've never seen or heard of that with an inline fuel injected engine. That is interesting but I wonder if it's correct.

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I've seen a number of videos where start up procedures in the RW are demonstrated. They mention that you're supposed to turn the prop 6 blades--one actually counted them in the video--with magnetos and fuel booster off, and the prop is turning really slowly, like about 15-20 RPM. This is to get oil distributed on the barrings in the engine before the initial ignition.
It is exactly to be sure of the lower cylinder being empty of oil, as gravity accumulates it in the lower one after stopping. You can break the cranks if you try to fire the engine and lower cylinders are plenty of non compressible oil... If you can't move prop at all you have to remove lower spark plugs and empty cylinders by hand. Nothing to do with inline engines.

 

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Orso said the engine was turned over with the starter not hand pulled thru.
Still related to radial engines feature I explained :smilewink:. Radials have a complicated lubrication.

 

S!

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That is a normal procedure fir a radial engine. I've never seen or heard of that with an inline fuel injected engine. That is interesting but I wonder if it's correct.

 

It is for merlins. These engines feature 1940s metallurgy, every start up is one nail to the coffin of such an engine. It goes so far that some operators have installed after market pre oiling pumps to their engines to pressurize the oil system for a few minutes before engine start up after a prolonged downtime. This can be seen in the video of Kermit Weeks operating his P-51.

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It is for merlins. These engines feature 1940s metallurgy, every start up is one nail to the coffin of such an engine. It goes so far that some operators have installed after market pre oiling pumps to their engines to pressurize the oil system for a few minutes before engine start up after a prolonged downtime. This can be seen in the video of Kermit Weeks operating his P-51.

 

All big engines need pre oiling event today big piston engines require before start presurise the oil system. For small engines like in car engines the pre oiling has so small factor in engine life span that nobody uses this. but in big engines its a wholle difrent world.

Another thing is that nowaday p-51s flight very rarely it could be like couple weeks between flights so owners of the old planes want stretch the life of the engine to max.

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The P51 needs 40c Oil temp before flight in DCS or otherwise expect a failure. The oil Temp Auto switch will not regulate the temp with any effect. Watch on climb out at 46inches MAP and 2700 Max Cont power at 170MPH indicated Airspeed it will red line. Open the oil cooler and it will come back to 85c This is a problem for the DCS Mustang

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The P51 needs 40c Oil temp before flight in DCS or otherwise expect a failure. The oil Temp Auto switch will not regulate the temp with any effect. Watch on climb out at 46inches MAP and 2700 Max Cont power at 170MPH indicated Airspeed it will red line. Open the oil cooler and it will come back to 85c This is a problem for the DCS Mustang

 

 

 

 

 

 

mmmmmm, both radiators seem to work for me on auto. Just have to open the water radiator before takeoff and then once you build enough speed(220mph or so) you put the water radiator back to auto. Your engine should be fine as long as its temps are below the red line.

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The P51 needs 40c Oil temp before flight in DCS or otherwise expect a failure. The oil Temp Auto switch will not regulate the temp with any effect. Watch on climb out at 46inches MAP and 2700 Max Cont power at 170MPH indicated Airspeed it will red line. Open the oil cooler and it will come back to 85c This is a problem for the DCS Mustang

 

The point is, that the gage used in the cockpit for oil temperature

has red line Lower than the actual permitted temperature and the temperature the radiator begins to open. If you use Auto, the thermostatic controller maintains normal conditions, until the scoop gets its limit.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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The point is, that the gage used in the cockpit for oil temperature

has red line Lower than the actual permitted temperature and the temperature the radiator begins to open. If you use Auto, the thermostatic controller maintains normal conditions, until the scoop gets its limit.

 

Yoyo I have flown the P51 in DCS quite a lot It is a very nice plane to fly. a credit to the team. Though I don't agree with that comment. If the P51 is used in AUTO both oil and water the temp for water behaves like it should. However the oil temp will climb out side the normal (green) operation range when you climb at Vy 170mph at 2700 RPM and 46 inches, This appears to be higher than the Auto radiator setting can adjust to. If you open the oil rad manually you get the oil back in to the green at best climb. This clearly shows the oil rad system is not at its thermal limit. I am pretty sure that the designers of the P51 would not set it that way, in fact from a pilots perspective this needs some tweeking. You should not need to run an automatic Oil system in manual with a best rate climb and this is just another bone of contention for the P51. JUST TO STOP ALL THE CRAP ABOUT THE P51, FIX IT It PLEASE this is an awesome model and very fun to fly. It's a handful in combat with the Prop Gov and WEP issues(fix that today please) and it will be much loved till the DM comes out. Please Please let this bird fly to 600mph in a dive and simulate compressibility (the pitch becomes unstable as the pressure wave meets the elevator) Many many reports confirming this. Don't Clip this fantastic machine! http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-stearns-12sept44.jpg

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Yoyo I have flown the P51 in DCS quite a lot It is a very nice plane to fly. a credit to the team. Though I don't agree with that comment. If the P51 is used in AUTO both oil and water the temp for water behaves like it should. However the oil temp will climb out side the normal (green) operation range when you climb at Vy 170mph at 2700 RPM and 46 inches, This appears to be higher than the Auto radiator setting can adjust to. If you open the oil rad manually you get the oil back in to the green at best climb. This clearly shows the oil rad system is not at its thermal limit. I am pretty sure that the designers of the P51 would not set it that way, in fact from a pilots perspective this needs some tweeking. You should not need to run an automatic Oil system in manual with a best rate climb and this is just another bone of contention for the P51. JUST TO STOP ALL THE CRAP ABOUT THE P51, FIX IT It PLEASE this is an awesome model and very fun to fly. It's a handful in combat with the Prop Gov and WEP issues(fix that today please) and it will be much loved till the DM comes out. Please Please let this bird fly to 600mph in a dive and simulate compressibility (the pitch becomes unstable as the pressure wave meets the elevator) Many many reports confirming this. Don't Clip this fantastic machine! http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-stearns-12sept44.jpg

 

I was testing P-51 recently and i can say that p-51 can hit Mach.85 it is faster in dive then fw190 d9 at high alt at alt around 30k ft p-51 is much faster, and compressibility is very noticable in that dive. So i am not sure what are you talking about? Recovery procedure is very accurate in DCS

I doubt that any other sim simulate this stuff any better


Edited by grafspee

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Yoyo I have flown the P51 in DCS quite a lot It is a very nice plane to fly. a credit to the team. Though I don't agree with that comment. If the P51 is used in AUTO both oil and water the temp for water behaves like it should. However the oil temp will climb out side the normal (green) operation range when you climb at Vy 170mph at 2700 RPM and 46 inches, This appears to be higher than the Auto radiator setting can adjust to. If you open the oil rad manually you get the oil back in to the green at best climb. This clearly shows the oil rad system is not at its thermal limit. I am pretty sure that the designers of the P51 would not set it that way, in fact from a pilots perspective this needs some tweeking. You should not need to run an automatic Oil system in manual with a best rate climb and this is just another bone of contention for the P51. JUST TO STOP ALL THE CRAP ABOUT THE P51, FIX IT It PLEASE this is an awesome model and very fun to fly. It's a handful in combat with the Prop Gov and WEP issues(fix that today please) and it will be much loved till the DM comes out. Please Please let this bird fly to 600mph in a dive and simulate compressibility (the pitch becomes unstable as the pressure wave meets the elevator) Many many reports confirming this. Don't Clip this fantastic machine! http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-stearns-12sept44.jpg

 

What behaviour do you want to see, as the thermostatic valve setting directed in the maintanance manual is HIGHER than the red line at the gauge?

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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The point is, that the gage used in the cockpit for oil temperature

has red line Lower than the actual permitted temperature and the temperature the radiator begins to open. If you use Auto, the thermostatic controller maintains normal conditions, until the scoop gets its limit.

 

What i noticed is the p-51 used 2 types of oil so the temp limits differ a little bit


Edited by grafspee

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What behaviour do you want to see, as the thermostatic valve setting directed in the maintenance manual is HIGHER than the red line at the gauge?

 

Yo Yo thank you for the reply, Please don't take this the wrong way, I love flying the DCS Mustang and this model has given me a great insight into WW2 (my step Father flew 2 tours as Pilot in command Lancaster Bombers 56 missions and flew Spitfires and Tempest V ( was in 2 of the 1000 bomber raids over Europe) and downed 2 BF109s and one V1 doodle bug during the war, including D Day operations in the spit. Im a pilot flying helicopters for a living and don't fly any real warbirds however as a pilot I am sure the Oil should stay in the green ark in a climb at VY. So if you have to watch (manual adjustment) of the oil temp in the climb then its not AUTOMATIC. If the oil temp works in Automatic and if you just climb at best rate by the book it will climb close to the red line. Yes its under the limit, If you then level off it will come back to the green ark However if your flying in combat and you join a fight at the red line then your asking for an engine failure the moment you go vertical. SO I ALWAYS FLY OIL on OPEN until above 10 000 feet, this should not need to be the case as the radiator gets enough air to keep it in the green when open fully. Can you tell me then why have an Automatic system that is set well below the thermal limit for a 46' 2700 170MPH climb? This is not a full power climb, its out of the book where i would expect the system to keep oil temp in the normal range. As a pilot I would ask my crew chief for fix it before I flew it again.

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I've never had problem with oil temp, no matter what i do it stops at 85C i have much more trouble with keeping coolant temp with in limits, If i set very hot ambient temp something above 30C Taking off at power settings above 50" are impossible, even when i manually open coolant doors, coolant will overheat(I cant imagine taking off with bombs or rockets installed this would lead to big overheat).

For me green arc range on the oil/coolant gages are for cruise power settings not for climb or military power settings.

I went through couple of p-51 manuals i didn't find anything like "keep temps in green no matter the costs" it is only said to not exceed temp limits in climbs or aerobatics, it is said to open coolant doors manually in hot conditions before take off.


Edited by grafspee

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I was testing P-51 recently and i can say that p-51 can hit Mach.85 it is faster in dive then fw190 d9 at high alt at alt around 30k ft p-51 is much faster, and compressibility is very noticable in that dive. So i am not sure what are you talking about? Recovery procedure is very accurate in DCS

I doubt that any other sim simulate this stuff any better

 

I think DCS is by far the best simulation for WW2 on the market. Period. I have read lots of reports and also heard 1st hand on WW2 allied aircraft diving to well past VNE, My step father said he though he went through the sound barrier in a Tempest V in a dive (impossible) but in those days that had not been done by any aeroplane. This canopy ripped off and Im sure at these speeds you would think you hit light speed. The mustang in a full power dive became unstable close to the hight MACH .85 .90 or so. This caused a shockwave to form and move rearwards as speed increased. As this shock wave reached the elevator on the P51 it caused pitch instability, the nose pitched up and down thus reducing the dive, the pilots new this buffet was the absolute limit (between 500 and 600 mph )depending on the density altitude.) Most pilots then pulled the throttle back and this causes the huge propellor to act as a air brake (god only knows how the prop Gov stopped it from over speeding) and they pulled out. 7g or more, Often watching the AXIS fighters wings come off before they pulled out. Any mustang pilot that didn't recognise this usually did not live to tell the tail. So why no make that Historically accurate? Make the P51 now pitch up and down and the engine work as a speed break like it really did. Don't just have a wing eject button at 507MPH or what ever it is set to in DCS. We need more WW2 pilots and Historically accurate models is the key. The war birds at air shows will never hit 72in HG unless your at Reno, thats on my bucket list. Thanks for your reply.

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I think DCS is by far the best simulation for WW2 on the market. Period. I have read lots of reports and also heard 1st hand on WW2 allied aircraft diving to well past VNE, My step father said he though he went through the sound barrier in a Tempest V in a dive (impossible) but in those days that had not been done by any aeroplane. This canopy ripped off and Im sure at these speeds you would think you hit light speed. The mustang in a full power dive became unstable close to the hight MACH .85 .90 or so. This caused a shockwave to form and move rearwards as speed increased. As this shock wave reached the elevator on the P51 it caused pitch instability, the nose pitched up and down thus reducing the dive, the pilots new this buffet was the absolute limit (between 500 and 600 mph )depending on the density altitude.) Most pilots then pulled the throttle back and this causes the huge propellor to act as a air brake (god only knows how the prop Gov stopped it from over speeding) and they pulled out. 7g or more, Often watching the AXIS fighters wings come off before they pulled out. Any mustang pilot that didn't recognise this usually did not live to tell the tail. So why no make that Historically accurate? Make the P51 now pitch up and down and the engine work as a speed break like it really did. Don't just have a wing eject button at 507MPH or what ever it is set to in DCS. We need more WW2 pilots and Historically accurate models is the key. The war birds at air shows will never hit 72in HG unless your at Reno, thats on my bucket list. Thanks for your reply.

pls read this one diving tests of p-51

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51d-dive-27-feb-45.pdf

0.85 is max what they got.

I dont know what speed are we reading on p-51's speed gage maybe it is calibrates IAS

After action reports are nice but those are not controlled environment for testing, it could be speed gage error. In trial tests everything is double checked and tested multiple times to make sure everything is legit.

And Pilot even the best one could not tell if he going 0.8 or 0.9 mach


Edited by grafspee

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Heilhead, I think you misunderstood Yo-Yo. What he says is - the generic, off-the-shelf oil temp gauge is NOT calibrated for actual operational temp range in the specific Mustang oil system and thus - it's the only gauge on the panel, which should be monitored by the numbers rather than by the colours.

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I've never had problem with oil temp, no matter what i do it stops at 85C i have much more trouble with keeping coolant temp with in limits, If i set very hot ambient temp something above 30C Taking off at power settings above 50" are impossible, even when i manually open coolant doors, coolant will overheat(I cant imagine taking off with bombs or rockets installed this would lead to big overheat).

For me green arc range on the oil/coolant gages are for cruise power settings not for climb or military power settings.

I went through couple of p-51 manuals i didn't find anything like "keep temps in green no matter the costs" it is only said to not exceed temp limits in climbs or aerobatics, it is said to open coolant doors manually in hot conditions before take off.

I did not mean keep the temps in the green no matter what. For the P51 in combat (especially in Burning skies) you need to climb as fast as possible. So I use the best climb speed, But I can be pretty sure that at that speed the Temp should be under control with regards to the Auto position, Yes Max climb with max power I would expect the temp to rise. I don't dispute that, its just working against Axis aircraft that climb with no issues with temp and at much higher power settings. The designers have to make compromises with oil coolers and drag, the P51 was advanced for its day both in wing and Scoop design, the Oil system was no exception. If you climb at the Book Best Speed/power the automatic system should keep the oil at optimum temps, then when required (full mil power) you have some margin. Thats all, its just another P51 ism that is defaming a fantastic fighter. Oil, Prop Gov, Wings, falling off, 61 inches, 50 cals that ballistically feel like 303s Wheels up landings = instant death< all not Historically correct. They add up and all I hear in chats is I wish these issues where fixed. My 2 cents worth, and I know many of the WW2 flyers think the same. Please Take off with the oil and water in Auto, I know water gets hot, this was historically correct, and still is today. Climb at best rate as I describe, Be darned if your oil dose not climb well over the green arc to max, before you reach 6000 feet, If your at 85 c your not climbing at best rate.

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Heilhead, I think you misunderstood Yo-Yo. What he says is - the generic, off-the-shelf oil temp gauge is NOT calibrated for actual operational temp range in the specific Mustang oil system and thus - it's the only gauge on the panel, which should be monitored by the numbers rather than by the colours.

 

Yes Art i can see his point, though I am an aircraft engineer by trade and high oil temps in any application over the max will destroy the lubricating properties of that oil, thats why its coloured green and we have gauges with colour only (for pilots) lol they are not the smart ones, the engineers are. Regardless of what the colour is at best rate the oil runs hot, yet the Auto door has not fully opened, Why? It is a simple thermostat, it opens the door at a set value of temp and closes it at a set value when the oil cools, until the oil cooler is at its maximum thermal efficiency right, disregard the colour, or gauge, its not part of the cooling system, its just an indicator to the pilot. So why dose the thermostat work at greater speed keeping the temp just right? If its a simple thermostat it should work like one and keep the oil temp at a set figure (engineer works that out) the manual switch is there as a back up for failure. so I am wondering why the climb is different, the door closes too much and the oil gets hotter the thermo switch should open the door to let more flow through the cooler (If Im climbing too slow) the oil cooler wont be capable of cooling any further right, No I open the door manually and the oil temps drop 15 or 20c ! that is my point. That set value must be wrong with relation to the thermal output and speed through the duct verses surface area of the cooler , its like the thermo switch changes calibration mid take off.

Hmmm food for thought Yo-Yo WE still love the P51 but a little love hate going on at the same time. If the P51 cant be fixed just break Mw50 again lol

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