resolved Aileron behavior and effectiveness

Hi,

I'm having an absolute blast flying the Sabre, but there is something that feels strange.

1) I've read the Sabre could still be controlled above Mach 1, and Sabre pilots entered MIG Alley at Mach .95 because that's where the MIG already lost control. In game, however, the Sabre loses aileron control over .95

2) I understand that at high speeds aileron is less effective. But try this: Dive and speed up to Mach .9 . Pull up and shove the stick fully to one side. The plane will start rolling very slowly, and then as it decelerates it will regain aileron effectiveness and start rolling really fast. The problem is that there is no transition whatsoever. Slow roll - BAMM - fast roll. Is this supposed to be like this?

Thanks!

Hi,

 

I'm having an absolute blast flying the Sabre, but there is something that feels strange.

 

1) I've read the Sabre could still be controlled above Mach 1, and Sabre pilots entered MIG Alley at Mach .95 because that's where the MIG already lost control. In game, however, the Sabre loses aileron control over .95

 

2) I understand that at high speeds aileron is less effective. But try this: Dive and speed up to Mach .9 . Pull up and shove the stick fully to one side. The plane will start rolling very slowly, and then as it decelerates it will regain aileron effectiveness and start rolling really fast. The problem is that there is no transition whatsoever. Slow roll - BAMM - fast roll. Is this supposed to be like this?

 

Thanks!

I've noticed this as well. I'm going to venture it's an air-frame issue (normal).

Bump. I read more books on the Sabre, and one pilot describes exceeding Mach one in a shallow dive for the first time. He expected something strange to happen, but the only sign was the needle passing the 1.0 number. He also said that new Sabres could exceed Mach 1 flying high but older, used ones could only do it in a steep dive.

Looks like ours is a very old and used one, and the ailerons behave like those on the the MIG-15. That was the Sabre's advantage, it could be controlled above Mach 1, but now anything past 0.95 and the ailerons freeze and the plane starts rolling. This takes away the Sabres historical advantage over the MIG-15.

I find I can control the Sabre up to about Mach 1.1 with great difficulty, beyond that it I have not been able to keep the speed up. It definitely becomes a handful over .95 and I do not believe it should having talked to my father about it. They routinely preformed at air displays before big crowds and one of the highlights was demonstrating breaking the sound barrier above the crown. It appears that they were able to maximize the effect of the sonic boom for the crowd by diving straight at it, something that would never be permitted if control were so difficult to maintain.

Most documentation I have found states that there is a heaviness or sluggishness at high indicated a/s and low alt and at high and medium alt and above Mach .95 there is a slight tendency to wing roll, nothing like the random oscillations that occur in the sim. See T.O. 1 F86-1 Section VI Flight Characteristics, particularly the subsections on Aileron Control, High Speed and Wing Roll.

This section may support your quoted source above, but refers to individual a/c not necessarily new vs old and states that there was a fix for it (I should have another look at T.O. 1-F86-4. I wonder if he was referring to older models to newer, i.e. the F-86A vs F-86F? There was a substantial performance improvement between them.

The other observation about speed seems to be true at all alt and configurations for the Sabre, it needs to be in a shallow dive to achieve historic figures for level flight. I should make a chart some day when I have time and compare to the official documentation.

Well said, Rob. I think our Sabre is quite undermodeled in this aspect. I wish I had the charts to present a case to ED/ Belsimtek, but I only have the pilots' accounts I've read.

I read the manual for more info and I think I get what is wrong:

1) At high mach numbers there should be a nose up tendency. Our Sabre noses down.

3) same source mentions a flattening of stick forces curve. See the chart, this will be important later.

2) Aileron control over Mach .95 becomes sluggish, and requires 4x the deflection. Just like in game, however here is what also happens in game:

Wings start to flutter above Mach .93, and above Mach .95 ailerons get jammed. For example, you move the stick left as you accelerate, and above .95 the ailerons will remain like that (full left stick) even after you apply full right stick. As if our virtual pilot wasn't strong enough to move the ailerons above Mach .95. This is VERY VERY wrong. It shouldn't be the case!

The manual says "sluggish" and specifies the need of 4x the deflection, it doesn't say "completely unmoveable"

Bump again. After more testing something is definitely weird with the aileron control:

At above Mach .93 you deflect the aileron, you move the stick back centered and the aileron stays deflected, and the plane keeps rolling. Then you shove the stick to the other side, it goes back to 0 and gets stuck there, or gets stuck deflected the other way.

So am I the only one being concerned about ailerons remaining stuck in deflected positions even after the stick is moved to the other side? And about the Sabre not having what gave it its historical edge, that is, control near Mach 1?

No, you're not the only one who thinks this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

You won't however get a response from the developers, and unless we can provide empirical evidence to support the case, then getting it changed may take some persuading.

The only thing we can do is raise a formal bug report, and then leave it to them to decide what they can or can't do.

Bumping the thread won't make it any more relevant, and I can guarantee they are aware of the complaint already.

I posted screenshots of the relevant parts of the original pilots manual. It says the ailerons should lose about 75% of their efficiency above Mach .95. In game it happens at lower speed with crazy anomalies.

And how on Earth should I find empirical evidence that an aileron should not be deflected right after the stick is moved left? Can you present empirical evidence that the Spitfire's wings didn't turn blue at 276 knots? Or that the MIG-21's engine didn't make a beeping sound at exactly half power? No, because it's absolute nonsense.

I tested in 1.56 and looks like this bug is gone? It's weird because there hasn't been a word about any fix. I did several tests, and now ailerons remain effective above Mach 1 - although not much - and most importantly, they don't get stuck deflected one way when the stick is moved the other way.

Squeaky wheels get greased? :smilewink:

In 1.5.6 update two, I'm still seeing the aileron locking behavior.

It's still present in 2.1. Weird how a transsonic fighter that had a historical advantage of remaining controllable above Mach 1 becomes paralyzed in DCS above M .93, and nobody cares to fix it :(

It got fixed for a couple of weeks in 1.5, but it's been back ever since, even in 2.1. Makes you re-consider buying "early access" or "beta" modules.

Can we please finally have a fix, or at least an official word on this glaring issue?

Thanks

So it's been 2 years since my original post. I produced sources and data, yet the Sabre's ailerons still lock up above Mach .95. push the stick to one side, then re-center it, the ailerons will remain deflected. PLEASE fix this.

I trust Belsimtek's customer service that I'm not just talking to myself here like a lunatic.

Yeah....I've kind of given up on the Sabre. I tried it after being away for a while and it's worse than ever. Not to mention that the trim is all kinds of strange in the open Beta.

This whole problem with things getting worse instead of better in DCS is wearing at me. Taking a long break. Just isn't really fun any more. Spending more time dealing with problems than enjoying the game.

Yeah....I've kind of given up on the Sabre. I tried it after being away for a while and it's worse than ever. Not to mention that the trim is all kinds of strange in the open Beta.

This whole problem with things getting worse instead of better in DCS is wearing at me. Taking a long break. Just isn't really fun any more. Spending more time dealing with problems than enjoying the game.

It's getting pretty aggravating across the board. I'm thinking F-14 might be my last purchase if this is going to be the case.

the trim is all kinds of strange in the open Beta

Not seeing this in any of the AC I fly. How is it all kinds of strange when it seems to work as expected?

Not saying anything about the aileron lock, though, since I'm a groundpounder and thus tend to stay low and slow...

Hey NL! I've also read that the aileron effectiveness should be only about 25% above those speeds.

The problem here is that in DCS the ailerons get stuck in a weird way. Sick full left. Nothing happens. Then all of a sudden you get full-ish aileron deflection. Then you recenter the stick, the ailerons remain deflected. You push the stick to the right, and still nothing. Then all of a sudden they react again. So it's not like we have normally working ailerons that are only 25% effective. About a year ago it was fixed for a month, then the old behavior came back.

no need for a track ,it's easier to reproduce: climb, accelerate to .95 mach or more, and start deflecting your stick left and right while watching your ailerons.

This bug has been around since forever. You are right, the wings flutter and the ailerons jam. This didn't happen IRL and it would be nice to have it fixed.

F-86F Aileron Bug Video

Ok, if you have a track send it my way, or I will try and replicate it tonight. Thanks!

Here I made a not public video where you can clearly see that something is wrong with aileron control and wing flexing in F-86... turned on that thing where you can see my joystick moves so you can see how Sabre don't responds to moves even tho it should.

Few times I had situation where ailerons on both wings were in same position which is also a bug.