Missing Forum threads for TF-51D

With the renewed interest in training aircraft, after the release of the latest of many trainers in the form of the Yak, I started wondering about a forum place where the TF-51D was discussed.

I did a forum-wide search, and the aircraft occasionally shows up in some threads as a mention, but I don't see a separate thread for it, even though the P-51D has its own separate section discussing that individual aircraft module.

I also see that the SU-25T and SU-25A seem to be lumped together, with most of the talk centering around the T model, in the Flaming Cliffs 3 subsection, even though it is not an FC3 aircraft. I do not see the trainer Mustang mentioned in the P-51D section, though.

So, two questions:

1) is there a manual for the TF-51D, and;

2) is there a forum section to discuss it?

I have always sort of felt that it was an orphan in the DCSW world, even though it is the first cockpit-clickable DCSW aircraft that any DCSW user will encounter. Since the performance of the TF-51D eclipses that of several other trainer aircraft, the Yak-52 included, it seems to be more pertinent now.

:helpsmilie:

First i would say that this probably belongs in one of the module or DCS world forums, as its not really news for the community.

That said, i would clarify that the Su-25 and Su-25T technical were both part of Flaming cliffs until DCS started giving the one away for free with the base DCS World sim. At that point it was just free, and no longer part of the FC Product that is purchased. the T model is probably discussed more as it is likely more used as its a bit more advanced and may appeal to more/most.

For the TF-51D, as i recall the TF-51D is literally the same as the P-51D with no weapons systems.. so all of the manuals/documentation and i would think forum would apply to both.

I suspect that as the Su-25T and the TF-51D are intended to be 'gateway' aircraft to new players it might make sense for ED to make it more clear where the questions and stuff should be posted and that the TF-51D/P-51D docs are the same thing, but for the purposes of at least answering you in this case i would say that should cover it.

I appreciate the info, but of course, the "where" of posting my question is found in the question itself; there is no specific place to ask about it that I could find, thus the more general post here. I care not if the post is moved.

It was never part of FC3 to my knowledge, nor was the T-model. There is a similar paucity of info on the A-model Sukhoi, which was part of FC3 originally.

Nonetheless, the TF-51D has training missions written specifically for it, and since the P-51D material is only available if you have purchased that separate module, then the lack of info in the "free" version of DCSW is the "why" of my question.

But I'm not arguing, just explaining that, in the simple, free version of DCSW, where it is found, there appears to be no information at all, save for a few training missions written for it.

It just struck me that, with all the interest in trainers now, with their much-easier-to-model systems, I was hoping that there was some written material for the original one.

Thanks for helping, though, it''s nice to get a reply in any case.

If I go to C:\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\TF-51D\Doc there is a P-51D manual and Q start. Is that not there for you?

The full manual should be in the module's "Doc" folder indeed. It's the same manual as for "combat" Mustang - nobody will bother to create a separate one for what is essentially the same plane minus guns (though one could argue, that weighing a couple of hundred lbs less it has slightly different optimal takeoff and landing speeds, so there is some difference in handling after all).

The same logic applies to the way the forum is organized, as the bugs/glitches, which affect TF and TF only are too rare. Most of bugs affect both variants at the same time, so it's better to have them reported in single forum section.

While the details could be debated endlessly either way, i do think there is value in the clarifying that a lot of these stuff may seem so obvious to those that have been around the product a while, and a new user wouldnt likely know their are manuals buried in the install directory, nvm where they might be.

I am not sure how much effort ED put in to it overall, but i can agree with the basic point of you post, which i think may be that with the extreme high level of complexity that is DCS, there should always be more improvement to the "new user experience". I would say it definitely needs some work right now, and its something that can always be made better.

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While the details could be debated endlessly either way, i do think there is value in the clarifying that a lot of these stuff may seem so obvious to those that have been around the product a while, and a new user wouldn't likely know their are manuals buried in the install directory, nvm where they might be.

 

I am not sure how much effort ED put in to it overall, but i can agree with the basic point of you post, which i think may be that with the extreme high level of complexity that is DCS, there should always be more improvement to the "new user experience". I would say it definitely needs some work right now, and its something that can always be made better.

 

 

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TL;DR version

The takeaway is fairly simple: there is no discussion section in the DCSW forums for the TF-51D. It is an aircraft module that was apparently intended by ED/TFC to be released as the free P-51D, but perhaps, for sales-sake (to not compete with the upcoming Belsimtek version, perhaps?) was name-changed to the TF-51D with a dummy second seat sans controls thrown in for appearances sake. It appears to be a separate and distinct software module from the Belsimtek version of the same airplane. The TF-51D might be the ED/TFC version of the P-51D in dummy two-seat disguise.

Well, thanks for that answer, DracoLlasa! It prompted me to do a lot of research and thinking about good old DCSW before I made this long-winded post. I would never have guessed that asking such a naive question would lead me down a veritable rabbit-hole of DCSW arcana, but it did, indeed, do just that.

I did, before I posted this question, go to the DCS World folder, looked in the sub-folder called Doc, where I sort of expected, you know, documents to be, and found the DCSW User Manual, which is no longer current. So, yes, documents were there, which confirmed my belief that documents would be found there. A quick search of the whole DCSW folder for a document covering the TF-51D comes up dry. However, I can safely say that knowledge of things like basic aircraft information manuals to be found in a sub-folder called Mods is...counter-intuitive and in-line with your comment about DCSW structure for people looking for basic information from scratch.

The DCSW User Manual does mention, briefly and in passing, an aircraft called the P-51D, which I suspect that ED intended to be part of the base/free DCSW, but that aircraft name was changed, at some point, to the TF-51D for reasons buried in the mists of ED/TFC antiquity.

The DCSW User Manual does not, however, tell a new player where to find manuals for the individual aircraft modules of the free version. Nor does it cover any of their aspects. No links, no instructional mention. I would think that the User Manual is a good place for that, i.e. telling new users where to find specific information about each of the included aircraft in the base DCSW, but, since it is not updated much and was last revised in 2014, that is not likely going to change.

So, yes, after looking in that obscure "mods" place, thanks to the suggestions of those who answered my question, I found a manual for the P-51D, which apparently does not exist in the base version of DCSW, in the folder C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\TF-51D\Doc and is entitled "P-51D".

The TF-51D aircraft 3D model, which does exist, has a dummy second seat, but no controls or user manual information to cover the use of the backseat. I would have thought that such a visual-only modification might generate some discussion, but I see none. So that lends support to my belief that the TF-51D is just a neglected middle child.

It looks like the TF-51D/P-51D user manual is likely written by ED or The Fighter Collection, or whoever programmed aircraft modules for the FC3 collection, I would guess. Neither aircraft are found in FC3, but they are temporal contemporaries.

The P-51D quick-start guide, also found in the TF-51D sub-folder, is really confusing, since it links to the Belsimtek version of the P-51D forum subsection. It probably does cover the operation of the ED/TFC version of the Mustang, though. There is really no way to know unless you have both versions. So that forum subsection reference is probably just wrong. Or maybe not...

Which just goes to show that there is apparently little to no community involvement with the TF-51D, since its informational presence is only found in the Mods sub-folder and some training missions. Sad, really, because it is the first ED/TFC aircraft module with a clickable cockpit. It could have been the first dual-cockpit, multi-crew ED/TFC plane, too. It wound up just being obscure.

If it would be upgraded to the latest, best, FC3 flight model standard, that would be awesome! If it were a modified to be what it is purported to be, a true dual-cockpit version, with duplicated controls, then it would be even more awesome! And truly apropos for a trainer version in the free DCSW installation.

As a point of curiosity, it would be a really interesting idea to fly the "TF-51D" and the Belsimtek P-51D versions side-by-side, to compare their software performance. If they match up, that would be sad, indeed. $40-$60 sad. It would be very disturbing to see that the TF-51D and the Belsimtek P-51D were one and the same aircraft, with but visual changes. Very disturbing.

I enjoy discovering these sorts of irrational bits and pieces of the software world; this whole subject matter is truly illustrative of the true ad hoc nature of DCSW.

Wait wait wait. Just to clear things up, there never was Belsimek Mustang, or FC-3 Mustang, nor can I find any links to Belsimtek Forum section in Quick-Start Guide (obviously), and out of curiosity I clicked all of them.

Both variants were made and programmed by ED, and they usually have their FMs updated together. As mentioned, their performance and handling are close, but not the same, at least when we're talking about specific performance figures affected by lower weight of TF.

I agree about the general DCSW manual, though it's good we've got any manual at all, unllike "the other" popular WWII sim, which has equally outdated one, and not even available through any official sources :D. On the other hand, a few weeks ago, NineLine hinted there apparently is an updated DCSW manual in the works. I'll believe it when I see it, but it would certainly make things easier for newcomers

yea i will add about the same as what Art-J said...

which i think just support the fact that the ED 'new user experince" needs a lot of help.

there never was 2 separate models of the mustang under different development. The notes about Belsimtek can be confusing if you read to far into them. BST (Belsimtek) has been working very closely with ED for many years now, so much that they have actually merged for all intents and purposes. The Mustang was never part of FC3, but the Su-25 was.. it was part of FC, FC1 and FC2. a lot changed with FC3 including BST doing almost all of the updated flight models for all of the FC3 planes.

When you load up the TF-51D module to fly it.. you are in the exact same module as the P-51D for any reason that matters. the cockpit it missing a few things as there are no weapons. but everything else is the same, and as i recall the actual player flyable TF-51D does not have a 2nd seat.

From what i recall, when DCS:W started the free base sim, they included the Su-25T as an example of a simplified Flaming Cliffs Style module, and for the full fidelity module, they took the existing P-51D and use that without the weapons as the TF-51D.

im sure the exact details are different, but point is they are the same...

so using the P-51D manual is perfectly fine and accurate for the TF-51.

That said, going again back to the New User Experience, its confusing, it makes no sense and well again as shown by this thread.. is REALLY confusing.

If they renamed the document and the title page tp clarify that it was for the P-51D/TF-51D, and put a copy in the correct folder with the corresponding name it would help, but as you pointed out the document locations and outdated base documents and so many other things really need some attention. Its very easy for a company to think they have let the community know cause it was in a newsletter and on the forums, but i would be amazed if 10% of the DCS user base actually looks at the forums on anything resembling a regular basis. so putting out proper documentation and guides that are very obviously found is important as is keeping them up to date.

As for the forum, being part of the base/free DCSW a sub forum for the Su-25T and TF-51 might make sense.. maybe.. but i would think just clarifying the P-51D forum was also for the TF-51 would be enough to solve the problem as they really are the same thing from the perspective of the 'sim/game' module perspective.