Jump to content

My New Cyclic Build with Magnetic Brake Trim


molevitch

Recommended Posts

And as if on command, Belsimtek announce they are officially in development of the Mi-24!!

 

For those of us of a certain generation and cultural background I thought I would say,

 

Belsimtekz Meanz Hindz! (Rubbish I know....)

 

M

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe they are going for the P version. There were polls suggesting the E, but I believe after deliberation and other factors BST are going for the P, which has some great looking firepower in its cannon. It will be interesting to see how they do the avionics and moving map.

 

Very exciting, and this weekend I am going to visit a helicopter museum in weston Super Mare, UK, to see their Mi-24D. I hope I can take some measurements....

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the maximum target engagement range for the P version weapon systems? So far I'm not a big fan of weapons systems like the Ka-50 and Gazelle TV guided weapons. I like the Huey and Mi-8 way of doing things, strafing a target or firing rockets at very short range and trying to survive the incoming munitions!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Demo of my 6DOF Motion VR Sim:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some pics of the almost completed Mi-24 Cyclic and Collective setups

 

Here are some pics of the almost completed cyclic and collective set up of my restored Mi-24/8 stick set.

All buttons and switches are now functional and mapped.

The cyclic hat is mapped to the autopilot stability system.

The grip itself has cyryllic text for AP and Off for the hat.

The RS button works as the weapon release button.

Trimmer button works the mag-brakes for the cyclic and the radio 2 stage trigger works the ICS or Radio.

 

grip-handbrake-released.jpg

 

The Handbrake lever is lockable closed, awaiting a spring for the latch and a cable to operate the brake switch.

Still have to puzzle that one through....

 

grip-handbrake-closed.jpg

 

The cyclic has an Edtracker unit mounted on the stick just above the pivot point on the gimbal.

Custom made angled mount so when stick is in neutral position, the Edtracker is level and square.

 

gimbal-with-edtracker-mounted-1.jpg

 

The collective has its own mag-brake without force-gradient springs and is on a separate 12v supply, operated by the collective brake button.

4-way hat switch restored and mapped to the searchlight.

Used a repaired WH 5-way switch as a sneaky cargo release button and 4-views switch between pilot, co-pilot, engineer and kneeboard.

Added a toggle for the RPM increase/decrease switch. Not sure it works right yet....

 

collective-raised.jpg

 

Collective raised and braked by the electro-magnet.

The damper is there to just smooth the movement, and does not hold the collective in position.

There is a potentiometer inside the cavity behind the throttle, beside the throttle linkage.

There is another potentiometer for the lever concealed inside the lever cradle and linked to the back of the lever pivot.

I went with pots as I just could not get Halls to behave.... Ironic.

 

collective-head-01.jpg

 

Collective head with restored hat switch, added RPM toggle, and other added buttons.

 

cyclic-grip-handbrake-above.jpg

 

The cyclic grip from above.

 

Having now flown several hours in training with Gizzy, I have to say that this system has exceeded my expectations. There was a moment a few days ago when, as I approached first testing, I thought, "What if after all this expense and effort, it all turns out to be crap, worse than what I had before?" Well, fortunately that did not occur. It is 100 x better than a commercial stick, especially a MSFFB Sidewinder. I cannot compare it with any of the commercial custom units by BRD, Virpil, etc. as I have never tried them.

 

This feels like the real thing. It is not dependent on the DCS Trimmer setups. The Edtracker gives the cyclic pitch/roll data, and the mag-brake locks it. The collective lever and throttle are raised and lowered, potentiometers read by DCS, and locked in position by the collective brake magnet.

 

Initially, it feels like a lot more control management, lots of trimming, lots of collective braking, but I have quickly got used to that. I think I started off over-trimming, and not using the force-gradients leeway, but getting better. I need to make a bigger thumb press for the trimmer switch, as those old Russian springs are tough, and I am getting a dent in my right thumb!

 

I am very happy, and pleased with the outcome. I highly recommend this kind of force-gradient + mag-brake system to any other chopper oriented pit-builders. It was relatively simple to do, and not too costly. I definitely have some leftover components to get rid of though!

 

M

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the maximum target engagement range for the P version weapon systems? So far I'm not a big fan of weapons systems like the Ka-50 and Gazelle TV guided weapons. I like the Huey and Mi-8 way of doing things, strafing a target or firing rockets at very short range and trying to survive the incoming munitions!

 

Hi Trip,

 

Quoting from airforce-technology.com. (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hind/)

 

Weapons

The helicopter has six suspension weapon units on the wingtips. The Mi24D (Mi-25) and the Mi-24V (Mi-35) are equipped with a YakB four-barrelled, 12.7mm, built-in, flexibly mounted machine gun, which has a firing rate of 4,000-4,500 rounds a minute and a muzzle velocity of 860m/s. The Mi-24P is fitted with a 30mm, built-in, fixed gun mount; the Mi-24VP with a 23mm, built-in, flexibly mounted gun.

 

The Mi-24P and Mi-24V have four underwing pylons for up to 12 anti-tank missiles. The Mi-24V (Mi-35) is armed with the Shturm anti-tank guided missile system. Shturm (Nato designation AT-6 Spiral) is a short-range missile with semi-automatic radio command guidance. The 5.4kg high-explosive fragmentation warhead is capable of penetrating up to 650mm of armour. Maximum range is 5km.

 

Russian Army Mi-24s are being upgraded with new avionics including thermal imagers.

 

The Mi-24V can also carry the longer-range Ataka anti-tank missile system (Nato designation AT-9), as can the Mi-24P. The Ataka missile's guidance is by narrow radar beam, and the maximum range of the missile is 8km. The average target range is between 3km-6km. The target hit probability of the Ataka missile is higher than 0.96 at ranges 3km-6km. The missile has a shaped-charge 7.4kg warhead, with a tandem charge for penetration of 800mm-thick explosive reactive armour.

 

All Mi-24 helicopters can also be armed with rockets and grenade launchers.

 

Avionics

The Mi-24D is equipped with the KPS-53A electro-optical sighting pod. The most recent Mi-24V and P variants have a digital PNK-24 avionics suite and multifunction LCD cockpit displays, and Geofizika ONV1 night-vision goggles, along with NVG-compatible cockpit lighting. They are fitted with the Urals Optical and Mechanical Plant GOES-342 TV/FLIR sighting system and a laser rangefinder. Countermeasures include infrared jammer, radar warner and flare dispensers.

 

It will be interesting to see how much BST can implement, but given their track-record, I am sure we can look forward to a stunning piece of equipment!

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bah! Too much modern tech!

 

Maybe BST will do a pre-upgraded version.

 

Mi-24P (Type 24-3; 'Hind-F'): Development started 1974; about 620 built 1981-90; first shown in service in 1982 photographs; P of designation refers to pushka = cannon; as Mi-24V, but nose gun turret replaced by GSh-30-2 twin-barrel 30mm gun (with 750 rounds) in semi-cylindrical pack on starboard side of nose; bottom of nose smoothly faired above and forward of sensors.

 

Thanks for the info Mole. Also your controls look fantastic!

 

Thanks. Getting there. Working on the Cyclic Wheel Brake today.... But it flies like a dream....

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Bunkaiotoko,

 

Yes, the wiring pipe is definitely 20mm. If you use that as a scale on the diagram, everything else will follow.

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi, first of all, great work. I was involved in a similar project, but I abandoned it. Now his seems very interesting to me.

Some issues.

What do you use the relay for?

Will not you apply the magnetic brake system to the pedals?

How has the system of "neutral" settled to the cyclical trim?

Does the magnetism of the brakes not affect hall sensors or potentiometers?

Greetings and delighted to read your project.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reply to Ruso

 

Hi, first of all, great work. I was involved in a similar project, but I abandoned it. Now his seems very interesting to me.

Some issues.

 

Hi Ruso, thanks for the compliments! It has been a learning project for me, with several dead-ends, left over components, frustrations and rewards.

 

What do you use the relay for?

 

The relay switch is used to reverse the effect of a PTM (Push-to-make) switch. The Russian original Trimmer button on the cyclic and in fact the Collective Brake button on the collective are both PTM. The Electro-magnets are live, to hold the cyclic and collective at trimmer set positions In order to momentarily switch off the electro-mags by pusjhing either the trimmer or the coll-brake button a relay is used in each circuit to break the 112v supply to the magnets. I have a circuit diagram somewhere earlier in this thread #39.

 

Will not you apply the magnetic brake system to the pedals?

 

The pedals should be free really. There is a thought to do it anyway, but it will add a third electro-mag circuit, and another button, and I don't think I really need it. I have BRD pedals which can be either free or self centring. I currently use them self centring.

 

How has the system of "neutral" settled to the cyclical trim?
The cyclic is "centred" where you want it, but pure upright is set at the start up, so there is no influence on the choppers pitch/roll. As I start to fly I can put the stick where I want, and let go. I can fly in good weather (no or marginal wind) pretty much hands off.

 

I am about to try some softer springs in my force gradients. The ones I used originally are a bit too stiff, making fine control amazing but more aggressive movement hard work without releasing the trim brake, which is not always desirable.

 

Does the magnetism of the brakes not affect hall sensors or potentiometers?

 

Potentiometers are fine, but I had problems with setting up Halls. BUT I think the Halls are bad/inappropriate for the use. So I plan to order some Allegros as recommended by Thadiun Okona and try when I have time. Work got really busy suddenly. (Curse real life!)

 

Greetings and delighted to read your project.

 

Glad you like it! Post yours, I would like to see how you get on.

 

Mole

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just ordered a bunch of A1324 Halls as I am not happy with the Edtracker.... Its USB plug socket just failed! Gonna reconfigure my cyclic with a pair of Halls using slide past sensing. And I can add all that without a major rebuild. In fact, they can be easily surface mounted onto the existing gimbal structure.

 

Also reducing the strength of the springs in my force gradients, as the current ones are just to much hard work....

 

Pics will follow in a few days.

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

This is the best thing I've seen in a while, beats my MK1 helicopter controls out of the water :D

 

I got my Oculus rift CV1 a couple of weeks ago and my sim flying has gone up by like 50 times, currently mostly running warbirds (in war thunder because 90fps at all times) but want to get back to the helo game in DCS, and currently researching a more serious home cockpit build with more feel - tried my mates Thrustmaster pedals and they just dont cut it. I feel I still don't understand how your mag brakes work really, but I'll get there I'm just a bit dull :helpsmilie:

 

My biggest dilemma is how to make some multipurpose cockpit that would be good for fixed wing and rotary, I understand I need a collective and throttle unit separately ofcourse but I want to have a stick and pedals that work reasonably for both. So that is a bit of thinking required item.

 

I also want to integrate some more feel into the controls, preferably by using oil shocks or some similar.

 

Gonna try to sketch up something in CAD tomorrow - try to formulate a working design and get a parts list etc...

 

 

Anyway, thanks for the inspiration you provide!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the best thing I've seen in a while, beats my MK1 helicopter controls out of the water :D

 

I got my Oculus rift CV1 a couple of weeks ago and my sim flying has gone up by like 50 times, currently mostly running warbirds (in war thunder because 90fps at all times) but want to get back to the helo game in DCS, and currently researching a more serious home cockpit build with more feel - tried my mates Thrustmaster pedals and they just dont cut it. I feel I still don't understand how your mag brakes work really, but I'll get there I'm just a bit dull :helpsmilie:

 

My biggest dilemma is how to make some multipurpose cockpit that would be good for fixed wing and rotary, I understand I need a collective and throttle unit separately ofcourse but I want to have a stick and pedals that work reasonably for both. So that is a bit of thinking required item.

 

I also want to integrate some more feel into the controls, preferably by using oil shocks or some similar.

 

Gonna try to sketch up something in CAD tomorrow - try to formulate a working design and get a parts list etc...

 

 

Anyway, thanks for the inspiration you provide!

 

Hi FIN_Centurion1,

 

Thanks for the words, give me some rep why dont you? :):music_whistling:

 

I can explain the mag brakes better if you want. I have been really busy with work for 2-3 weeks, long days and deadlines. I had planned to do a proper explanation when I realised how many were interested, but had no time and was mostly interested in getting it to work for flying!

Basically I was looking for a relatively easy build as I don't have access to light industrial machinery! I found inspiration from a couple of other builders and figured out some ways to incorporate some of their methods. In a couple of weeks I will have time to put a better build description together with drawings and pics etc, though not blueprints by any stretch! I tend to work on a "found this spring, make it fit, will it work, yes, no, keep hunting" basis, though I do make little non-scale plans in sketch-books.

Basically, the electro-mags hold the cyclic stick in position, and the springs on the "force-gradients" allow for some play. It gives very fine control in a chopper sim. So you can centre the stick and it stays there, a bit like any spring loaded self centring stick. But with the mags, I can reposition that centre offset by degrees in any direction. So it is trimmed. I can literally set it, and even hover in one place, HANDS OFF! (no wind obviously).

 

If I knew how to, I would make one of those PIP videos showing it all together, the mechanics, the controller (me) and the results on screen. But I have not yet learned how to do that....

  • Like 1

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Final results

 

My Mi-24 Cyclic and Collective Pit is pretty much finished, in as much as it is now flyable with great results.

 

The handbrake works. Pull the lever and the cable pulls a spring loaded lever onto a PTM momentary button. I built a small box containing all the parts and the cable goes into that. The box is strapped to the base of the stick and concealed by the leather boot. I will make a drawing of the box interior and post it later.

cyclic-leather-boot01.jpg

cyclic-leather-boot03.jpg

The mechanics of the mag-brakes etc are now covered from the front and top. The leather boot is made from an old scrap of leather, eyeletted and laced up. It protects all the Hall sensors and cables from accidental contact from anything falling in or brushing against them.

 

Hall sensors mounted into aluminium channels and attached to the gimbal for the pitch axis and to the roll axis mount for the roll axis. 5mm neodymium magnets are set into small blocks of black ABS plastic, glued onto the base of the cyclic stick for pitch and the back wall of the gimbal box for roll.

hall-sensor-pitch.jpg

 

So there we are. I cannot quite believe how sensitive the controls are. Even the twitchy Gazelle is relatively easy to fly now. The Huey and the Mi-8 are a real joy. The trimming is excellent, allowing almost hands-off cruising, and certainly allows for other cockpit activities, switch use etc. Very happy, and very smug!

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ruso, thanks for the compliments! ,..

 

Indeed nice work. :thumbup:

 

 

The pedals should be free really.

 

Yes and?

 

I currently use them self centring.

 

Mole

 

 

No. Why? ;):P

 

:D:D


Edited by FragBum
Formating

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed nice work. :thumbup:

 

 

 

 

Yes and?

 

 

 

 

No. Why? ;):P

 

:D:D

 

Oh, I just like it that way. Its a very gentle spring...

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I just like it that way. Its a very gentle spring...

 

I got rid of the spring and centre detent on my combat pro's and never looked back, I just go by the string (or gauge) to make sure the helicopter is in balance. Although when I build proper toque pedals they will just have a damper to provide slight resistance to movement just as it should be. :D

 

Cheers Frag. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okey, this is what I have found in the manual:

 

При необходимости летчик может снять усилия с

ручки управления и педалей путем нажатия кнопки

триммеров, расположенной на ручке продольно-по-

перечного управления вертолетом. При нажатии

кнопки происходит растормаживание электромаг-

нитных тормозов ЗМТ-2М, поводки которых связа-

ны со штоками пружинных механизмов, и усилия с

ручки управления и педалей снимаются практиче-

ски мгновенно.

 

The last sentence basically says that, once the trim button is pushed, the force is "removed" instantly. So I guess, pressing the the trim button and releasing it right away should also instantly give you a new "center spring" position.

 

Molevitch, does that work with your setup? Maybe you could make a video of that?

Once again - fantastic project! I'm already thinking about something similar. :)

My cyclic stick - modded MS FFB2 and

 

My Mi-8 training videos

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okey, this is what I have found in the manual:

 

 

 

The last sentence basically says that, once the trim button is pushed, the force is "removed" instantly. So I guess, pressing the the trim button and releasing it right away should also instantly give you a new "center spring" position.

 

Molevitch, does that work with your setup? Maybe you could make a video of that?

Once again - fantastic project! I'm already thinking about something similar. :)

 

Hi Viktor,

 

Thanks for the kind words. I am currently working out how to make a video with 3 or more simultaneous views, including one of the actual stick and collective in use. In fact, I have now worked out how to do that, so will soon be making the actual video.

 

The trimmer button releases the magnets so the stick goes loose. I have to centre it manually, there is no spring to bring it back to centre. I use the red diamond instrument indicator to check for true centre and keep it on most of the time.

 

So without pressing the trimmer the cyclic is in a fixed position, held by the force of the springs in the force gradients. I can make miniscule adjustments by pushing the stick against the springs resistance. But I can press the trim button and keep it pressed and simply move the stick all over as I please. Or I can do a momentary press to trim and release.

 

This means that I can actually set the cyclic trim, set the collective brake, and hover, hands free. I can make a cruise turn, hands free. I can have fine control in the hover, once trimmed and move back, forwards, sideways, turn etc, all with hardly moving from the hover spot. Great for slingloading, embarking, disembarking troops etc. But also when set up as a gunship, I can hover and snipe! I am trying to see if I can land hands free! Only as a proof of concept of course.

 

So yes, in answer to your question, it does do what it says in the manual.

 

Now, I must get that video made! Oh, please give me some rep!:music_whistling::joystick:

 

M

  • Like 1

SCAN Intel Core i9 10850K "Comet Lake", 32GB DDR4, 10GB NVIDIA RTX 3080, HP Reverb G2

Custom Mi-24 pit with magnetic braked cyclic and collective. See it here: Molevitch Mi-24 Pit.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] www.blacksharkden.com

bsd sig 2021.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...