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A Proposal for Community Relations between ED & The Community


AspenGrey

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Same as it started! Would love to see ED implement a program where they work directly with server owners, multiplayer mission designers, and 'community influencers' to resolve some of the big complaints about MP, whether that's by identifying and fixing bugs or by identifying problems and best practices for mission design and server operation.

 

Let me hear a yes or a no on that, ideally with reasons if it's a no. I can copy that answer over to the much busier discussions about this on discords and hoggit. I've continued posting because people are bringing up things that I consider at least somewhat valid points of discussion, and if I believe in the idea I should be prepared to defend it or change the idea when good points are discussed.

 

I hear you saying that it already happens, but if it does it's not on a very significant level or it's not really apparent to the community. In that case, I'd hope to see results from that. Maybe it's all under an NDA, and in that case it'd really be a shame, but that is how business works.

 

There's just a lot of rebuilding getting done behind the scene AspenGrey and possibly more to come that could make MP worse before it gets better:cry:. Things you need to do to move new high tech forward;).....and ED will cop it again if that happens LOL. Comes with the turf right.

 

You or ED cannot win here and make everyone happy with whatever you do or say before or after, it will just settle down for a while than back at it LOL. This is the internet and a lot of flight simmers in one spot that are hard to please. I would like to know how long you have been around flight simulation?

 

I know your just trying here and want things to be great and everyone to be friends again. It just doesn't work that way in the flight sim world sorry. Love this hobby but many simmers can be a bunch of entitled children at times with all parts of flight simulation, there just hard to please.:)

 

ED wants this to be the best sim out there, this includes MP too, It just wont happen overnight.


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Based on all the responses it would appear that the one with the most experience and expertise in customer service and human interaction is AspenGrey. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you're selling, whether it be paper clips, cars, aircraft or multi billion dollar company buy outs or mergers, it all comes down to people, and knowing people (I'm referring to human psychology here). Nineline, you said on Hoggit that you regret and shouldn't have been sarcastic with a customer but that it wouldn't be cause for you to worry about your job. I agree, but only if it's a rare event, you asking the troll in this thread for his opinion about your sarcasm is just a tad on the nose.

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Me disputing the point of random armchair advice is not trolling, just because you disagree. I stand by my earlier comment : every two weeks somebody presents complaints and/or business advice like they had some new idea that's never been done before. Immediately afterward people like me shoot it down and people like you champion it.

 

It's almost like the Internet has thousands of different people on it all doing their own thing

 

And for the record, while abuse from companies or exploitation are unacceptable, ''the customer needs his hand held and ass kissed'' is also unacceptable. Customers shouldn't assume bitching and whining loudly enough deserves personal customised attention. That is barely tolerable from a child, adults should definitely get it together better than that.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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I never let me customers bitch or complain to get there way. I do however take any and legitimate concerns, questions or errors very seriously. I never show disrespect to my customers even if they are acting like spoiled children, and some of them do, and their not just adults, some of the loudest are senior citizens (wealthy ones at that). The point AspenGrey was making far better than I was that it's prudent to seek the path of least resistance when your dealing with customers of your business. Actually Aspen also made the point that it's generally a good way to deal with anyone life. So can you point out exactly where Aspen was wrong in regards to the ideas he put forth (I get that you think he shouldn't have posted in the first place). I'll point out that Aspen's suggested "tactics" are those used by some of the most successful businesses on the planet. Feel free to link my some Forbes or Business Insider articles that support your idea zhukov, I'd truly be interested in reading them.

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Yeah, I really don't care what Forbes or BI or anybody else think. You can prioritise chasing dollars, in which case you handle people with kid gloves, or you can have a backbone and tell people to shove off when they do not deserve respect, and yeah, that means I believe it is earned and not automatically given.

 

As for how my philosophy in life works out, I have enough success to build home cockpits and book flights with MiGFlug, so not too bad as it turns out. Somebody else might indeed make more the 'PC' way, but I prefer my sanity and self respect to my wallet, so I'll manage.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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I stand by my earlier comment : every two weeks somebody presents complaints and/or business advice like they had some new idea that's never been done before. Immediately afterward people like me shoot it down

 

I'd like to hear something from you on why it wouldn't work. So far I've heard,

- DCS is a successful company that knows how to handle things and doesn't need outside help.

- .... Did I miss something else?

 

I mean, that's not a bad argument. They clearly have been doing well or they wouldn't be around. I think the customer base would see this as an olive branch. Communication and interaction with the community ideally drives loyalty, which increases sales and word-of-mouth marketing. Basically, I'd be thinking, 'How do I get all of my customers to be as engaged and supportive as Zhukov?'

 

Arguments I could personally come up with against this proposal (off the top of my head):

- This takes developers away from developing. (Cost benefit analysis- will it help us fix things? Does it require a lot of opportunity cost to try it out?)

- It requires additional manpower & time that may be better spent on other things. (You need someone to coordinate it and developers to look into things. It's

- The current system is providing enough data

 

I've actually brought these up in my discussion of the idea. Personally, as a user and customer, I appreciate having more communication rather than less, so even if say, #3 is the reason, I don't see how it could hurt development but I do see benefits in the PR realm.

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You have Nine and Wags himself (one of ED's senior staff) not to mention various others participating directly all the time. How many staff members do you want on the forums before you feel like they're involved enough? You want they should weigh into every concern thread? Not gonna happen, if for no other reason than because they get tired of answering the same question 4000 times because people are too lazy to use the search function.

 

I don't care what ED do one way or another, you made a post, I offered a counter point, effectively saying what you're asking for is already being done. They are in fact active in the thread/s that prompted you to start this one.

 

Most of the server owners appear to have offered their wishlists for the future and expressed their peeves, and at least as a whole their commentary has been acknowledged. Dealing with the forums is a full time job, they should really hire somebody that does that and nothing but... oh wait. They did, he's a few posts above this one.

 

Everybody that thinks they need personal acknowledgement of every complaint or post really is out of touch with reality. They can't tailor responses to each person, it isn't possible.

 

And everybody who gets butthurt because some company rep displayed a glimmer of personality or emotion needs to rethink their lives, too. They're people, not chatbots. If that reality makes somebody not want to buy a product, then they should stay in doors and never ever deal with the outside world, cause somebody might micro-aggress them @@

 

I've argued with Nine, too, I didn't get banned and his house didn't get burned down, nor did either of us swear off the forums or DCS. People are people and life moves on.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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Based on all the responses it would appear that the one with the most experience and expertise in customer service and human interaction is AspenGrey. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you're selling, whether it be paper clips, cars, aircraft or multi billion dollar company buy outs or mergers, it all comes down to people, and knowing people (I'm referring to human psychology here). Nineline, you said on Hoggit that you regret and shouldn't have been sarcastic with a customer but that it wouldn't be cause for you to worry about your job. I agree, but only if it's a rare event, you asking the troll in this thread for his opinion about your sarcasm is just a tad on the nose.

 

I can only let my current interaction with everyone speak for me, you will be able to find moments in everyones history where they worded something not perfectly, or where their answer was taken without context. To be the most vocal and one of the most active with the community, its going to happen, and it might even happen again. I do my very best for ED and for the community, even more than most of you see. Do I think this thread is a little much based on one comment, I sure do. I also think its rude to call someone a troll because he has a differing opinion of the OPer.

 

I have a sarcastic funny bone, blame my mom. It comes out at times. I more regret that it wasnt taken in context to what I was answering more than saying it at all. In questioning what this thread is about, again, I am fine with that response, its a little much now. I feel our customer communication with everyone is very strong, but people will always have an opinion about how to do something better.

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Yep- all of those things happen and I've acknowledged it. It doesn't seem to be the most effective way to do it. Maybe I'm not clear, but I'm talking something where the company is reaching out rather than the customer is reaching out. That, which is the only thing I'm suggesting, does not seem to happen. (Yeah- I talk about some PR tactics in the initial post, but those items of concern have long-since been dealt with on the main threads.)

 

Yet again, I am not in any way saying this should be applied to every complaint on the forums. I'm saying, 'pick a select group of people and do it'. We know ED is OK with working with community influencers at some level- see the recent Grim Reaper's video competition.

 

I don't have any personal complaints with the way Nine's been talking with me.

 

One more thing-

 

You can prioritise chasing dollars, in which case you handle people with kid gloves, or you can have a backbone and tell people to shove off when they do not deserve respect, and yeah, that means I believe it is earned and not automatically given.

 

I mean... No. That isn't how business works. If it's worked out for you, more power to ya. But, a customer does not need to 'earn' the respect of a business. That respect should be automatic. Otherwise, customers will vote with their dollar and discontinue their relationship with that business. Businesses should always strive to earn the respect of their customer, never the other way around. It's not art, it's not politics, it's business. The point is to sell a product. Even if you are 1000000% dedicated to that product and it's your life's work and everything, you're still in it to sell that product at the end of the day.

 

That's not particularly relevant to this because I think that ED does respect their customers and do a pretty good job overall, so pardon the off-topic. I'm merely suggesting one way that I think they could do even better and make a win-win situation.

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That's also your opinion vs mine =) I don't care how you think 'business' should work. If I was to walk out the door and start a restaurant, it would be because *I wanted to*, yeah need to earn a living, too, but because *I* want to run a restaurant would be the main reason for doing it. Customers are free to order regardless of their background, they're free to eat, to complain whatever, to a point. If I decide a guy is a dick, trying to rip me off, whatever, I would throw him out. If it went viral and people bitched about it, I would be all to happy to provide a press release telling anybody who doesn't like it to piss off and never come back.

 

People with YOUR ideas are why there are frivolous lawsuits that companies settle with because it's cheaper than fighting it. I personally would pile my money in the kitchen and burn the whole thing down than give a penny to someone who didn't deserve it. If every business had that approach, people would know it was a deadend.

 

Principle outweighs wallet, to me. I know most people would rather take it in the bum than miss a chance to make a buck, but I'd settle for a lessened income and the satisfaction of adhering to my principles.

 

Also we've wandered far off topic, and I'm losing interest in this circular conversation. I'm off to find a new battlefield.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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I can only let my current interaction with everyone speak for me, you will be able to find moments in everyones history where they worded something not perfectly, or where their answer was taken without context. To be the most vocal and one of the most active with the community, its going to happen, and it might even happen again. I do my very best for ED and for the community, even more than most of you see. Do I think this thread is a little much based on one comment, I sure do. I also think its rude to call someone a troll because he has a differing opinion of the OPer.

 

I have a sarcastic funny bone, blame my mom. It comes out at times. I more regret that it wasnt taken in context to what I was answering more than saying it at all. In questioning what this thread is about, again, I am fine with that response, its a little much now. I feel our customer communication with everyone is very strong, but people will always have an opinion about how to do something better.

 

Sorry I missed this! I do think the tone certainly improved (text can be a bitch) in the main thread very quickly. Heck, it's even been stickied, doesn't look like that's suppressing discussion to me.

 

I'd just like to point out that while I had some comments on some of the initial responses, I (again) feel that it was handled pretty well later in the thread and pretty much textbook in the 2nd thread.

 

That's why I've been focusing my responses in this thread almost exclusively on the idea that having ED reach out to server owners and start up a direct dialogue (OFF the forums!) would be useful.

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Yeah Zhukov, all fine for you. We are just glad you are not running ED. :)

 

 

@OP, I read the initial post that was deleted in the other thread and I agree mostly.

 

 

 

@Nineline, I think you most of all learned from this situation, but a small reminder, we had something similar happen in the Harrier DRM thread. It was a thoughtless statemind along the lines "how does this problem even affect you guys?" that could be misinterpreted as "We don't care what you guys think" and blew up also.

 

 

 

You don't have to study psychology to know this triggers people and even worse, later on you can't argue against feelings.

 

 

Now when you are already in damage control mode, as you noticed, a small statement not well thought out, can add to the fire. Just wishing for a bit more sensibility when dealing with controverse issues, I know this is asking a lot. Yours is certainly a job I could not fulfill in the same way that I expect from others. :)

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I would be very, very cautious about pursuing this idea. If ED quietly contacted the admins for the top 10 most used MP servers and asked them what would make their lives easier then I think that could have significant value.

 

I would suggest though that any such discussion should be strictly limited to the running of MP servers. I've seen this so very many times over the past >20 years of on-line gaming: as soon as a dev team engages with a small section of the community about game design then utter chaos ensues, the entire community tends to destabilise and become horribly toxic in a way that ED games have thankfully never suffered from before, and I hope will not suffer from in the future.

 

Let me make this very clear, from bitter experience: making changes to a game in order to appease <5% of the total user base is a recipe for utter disaster. It leads to player power struggles, allegations of "who put you in charge" and the worst sort of electioneering corruption.

 

Stick to discussing the setup and administration of MP servers and this could be a very useful discussion for the small percentage of players who run servers and/or who play on them. Go any further than that is an existential risk to the stability and longevity of the entire DCS player community.


Edited by DarkFire

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Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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I think talking to a handful of the top server admins for shaping the direction of the Dedicated Server tools and Official servers would be very important, as such I am sure ED will do so, they have never had a problem reaching out to community people, even if it's not advertised that they do.

 

I would be very, very cautious about pursuing this idea. If ED quietly contacted the admins for the top 10 most used MP servers and asked them what would make their lives easier then I think that could have significant value.

 

I would suggest though that any such discussion should be strictly limited to the running of MP servers. I've seen this so very many times over the past >20 years of on-line gaming: as soon as a dev team engages with a small section of the community about game design then utter chaos ensues, the entire community tends to destabilise and become horribly toxic in a way that ED games have thankfully never suffered from before, and I hope will not suffer from in the future.

 

Let me make this very clear, from bitter experience: making changes to a game in order to appease <5% of the total user base is a recipe for utter disaster. It leads to player power struggles, allegations of "who put you in charge" and the worst sort of electioneering corruption.

 

Stick to discussing the setup and administration of MP servers and this could be a very useful discussion for the small percentage of players who run servers and/or who play on them. Go any further than that is an existential risk to the stability and longevity of the entire DCS player community.

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I think talking to a handful of the top server admins for shaping the direction of the Dedicated Server tools and Official servers would be very important, as such I am sure ED will do so, they have never had a problem reaching out to community people, even if it's not advertised that they do.

 

Agreed. Hmm, maybe my last post came across as something of a prophecy of doom. To clarify, I've been a member of various ED-related fora since about 1997 and have always been impressed about how they've always managed to be something of a haven of polite tranquility compared to how many other game forums have developed. I am and always have been proud to be a member of this community for this and many other reasons :thumbup:

 

I've no doubt that ED would be entirely sensible about approaching people, but a sensible degree of caution should also be exercised.

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Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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Agreed. Hmm, maybe my last post came across as something of a prophecy of doom. To clarify, I've been a member of various ED-related fora since about 1997 and have always been impressed about how they've always managed to be something of a haven of polite tranquility compared to how many other game forums have developed. I am and always have been proud to be a member of this community for this and many other reasons :thumbup:

 

I've no doubt that ED would be entirely sensible about approaching people, but a sensible degree of caution should also be exercised.

 

Of course, not everyone plays DCS for the same reasons, or the same content in DCS, to focus on one aspect would be a mistake, as much of a mistake as ignoring any aspect of DCS. People sometimes feel ignored, its tough, but hard to get around that, ED is thinking of all aspects of the game at all times, the news just doesnt hit as soon as everyone likes.

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AspenGrey,

 

You wrote," As a public relations professional (Not marketing- not my area!), this situation piqued my interest as an excellent case scenario for training, and I decided to write up my own opinion on how something like this could, potentially, be handled."

 

You are a new member, you post a proposal not to actually find/present a solution to a problem but to elicit information for your own personal satisfaction, mainly justifying your opinions.

 

You've successfully wasted everyone's time except your own. This forum has numerous avenues to present your communications/questions/complaints/advice etc.

 

Your concerns have been addressed ad nauseum.

 

Next time come with a solution for the MP servers. It would have been more appropriate in this forum had you a degree in computer science/networking/ aeronautical engineering/ instead of Public Affairs-Public Relations as touted in your original post. Although fitting in this context, it hardly brings anything worthwhile, except a few humorous posts.

 

We, I, do not come here to ascertain how better too "handle" situations in addressing opinions to the Developers/Administers in a more aprepo mannerism. All of your suggestions have been beaten to death already.

 

Yes, I am a grouchy old man. And take this post as a grain of sand, as I have taken yours.

:smilewink:

 

Laz :D

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lol

Are we making a club? I want in.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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