** DCS: F-14 Development Update - September!! **

Looking forward to this . Can't wait . And the A6 too . Wow

Now where is my TOPGUN dvd.

Let's stick to dogfighting in DCS make-believe world. And let the real aviators worry about the real world.

 

 

 

*BEFORE* this thread gets shutdown due to politically charged debates.

Too late....... :bye_3:

Not harsh at all. The Iran-Iraq War ended 30 years ago. The question is, what are those remaining Tomcats like now? What are the IRIAF pilots like today?

 

 

I'll give you a hint: it's probably not good:

 

 

 

 

Even those who like to play up the IRIAF Tomcats' performance in the Iran-Iraq War forget how devastating the conflict was to both sides. Neither country truly recovered from it and there is a near-unanimous consensus Iran now poses little to no conventional military threat to the region nor the world (this is not the same as saying they pose no threat overall, mind you).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Give this a read:

 

 

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/30/islamic-republic-f14-feature/

 

But it's not even about how low-skill the Iranian pilots are, it's more about how U.S./Western pilots are educated and trained. Simply put, they know how to get the most out of their aircraft, know the latest in tactics, and sometimes know the enemy better than the enemy knows themselves. It's not just about hardware, it's the people operating the hardware that makes the difference.

 

 

That said, I look forward to splashing Iran's F-14s in the air or dropping bombs on them while they're still on the ground. If we can't have them, neither can they.:pilotfly:

Some of the biggest mistakes in warfare have come about by underestimating your foe. Something allied forces have rarely been guilty of over time. No stones were left unturned in their preparations for desert storm for example. They rated the Iraqi defences highly. And they would not underestimate Iranian F-14s should conflict occur. Losses during the Vietnam war are something the Americans have learned from for a long time.

Some of the biggest mistakes in warfare have come about by underestimating your foe. Something allied forces have rarely been guilty of over time. No stones were left unturned in their preparations for desert storm for example. They rated the Iraqi defences highly. And they would not underestimate Iranian F-14s should conflict occur. Losses during the Vietnam war are something the Americans have learned from for a long time.

Nobody's underestimating the enemy here, that's a straw-man. I'm talking less about what the enemy's capable of and more about how the U.S. and West trains its pilots. Can you or anyone say with any confidence that IRIAF or any other Third World fighter pilot is trained to the level of depth and professionalism that U.S. and Western pilots are? No, you cannot. The available literature out there suggests those guys don't train as much as we do, nor do they train the way we do. At some point, it doesn't become so much of a guessing game. The U.S. and the West also have access to capabilities these other air forces simply don't have. None of this is to say they couldn't inflict any damage on us, but in the big picture, those would just amount to small victories that won't change strategic picture.

It's like the saying "Smart men learn from history; stupid men learn from experience." More often than not, U.S. and Western pilots are the former rather than the latter.

And do you ever get tired of bringing up the the Vietnam example? That wasn't just a matter of underestimating North Vietnamese pilots. That was also making a conscious decision to allow dogfighting skills to atrophy because of the advent of missiles. And now that we've learned those lessons, the Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy have hammered them into every proceeding generation of fighter pilots so we emerge victorious every time. And we have.

Nobody's underestimating the enemy here, that's a straw-man. I'm talking less about what the enemy's capable of and more about how the U.S. and West trains its pilots. Can you or anyone say with any confidence that IRIAF or any other Third World fighter pilot is trained to the level of depth and professionalism that U.S. and Western pilots are? No, you cannot. The available literature out there suggests those guys don't train as much as we do, nor do they train the way we do. At some point, it doesn't become so much of a guessing game. The U.S. and the West also have access to capabilities these other air forces simply don't have. None of this is to say they couldn't inflict any damage on us, but in the big picture, those would just amount to small victories that won't change strategic picture.

 

 

It's like the saying "Smart men learn from history; stupid men learn from experience." More often than not, U.S. and Western pilots are the former rather than the latter.

 

 

 

And do you ever get tired of bringing up the the Vietnam example? That wasn't just a matter of underestimating North Vietnamese pilots. That was also making a conscious decision to allow dogfighting skills to atrophy because of the advent of missiles. And now that we've learned those lessons, the Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy have hammered them into every proceeding generation of fighter pilots so we emerge victorious every time. And we have.

I didn’t at any point say they were trained to the same standards as US Navy F-14 pilots. But at the same time you gave them no credibility whatsoever, which I maintain is harsh.

That said, I look forward to splashing Iran's F-14s in the air or dropping bombs on them while they're still on the ground. If we can't have them, neither can they.:pilotfly:

Stop dude, just stop. We all get that the US has the biggest and most modern military in the world, but you're coming off as a warmonger, and that has no place on these forums.

Yo how much does anyone want to bet that once Jester comes out, someone is going to make a voice mod like for Elite Dangerous? That way we dont have to open up menus and just say like "Jester, Launch 1 Fox 3" and he does it. I feel like thats the appropriate progression, dont you?

Yo how much does anyone want to bet that once Jester comes out, someone is going to make a voice mod like for Elite Dangerous? That way we dont have to open up menus and just say like "Jester, Launch 1 Fox 3" and he does it. I feel like thats the appropriate progression, dont you?

We already have that...

Voice Attack can execute keyboard binds by voice input alone.

Jester, near target fox three" can easily be programmed to mean

JESTER MENU-OPEN-TARGET NEAREST-FIRE PHOENIX

...and stick VAICOM PRO into Voice Attack too and you have full voice control of all of the comms as well.

In VR especially that is a very useful immersion enhancing addon.

Except the F-14s flown by Iran aren't what you think they are. Few are in decent flying condition and most are poorly-maintained. Most important, the pilots are like most Middle East pilots - not great. When faced against U.S. and Western pilots, they're screwed.

 

 

Nobody should be in awe of Persian cats in the least bit.

A group of farmers in the desert carrying AKs and wearing sandals made my life very difficult. Respect your adversary. And respect the international DCS community.

Except the F-14s flown by Iran aren't what you think they are. Few are in decent flying condition and most are poorly-maintained. Most important, the pilots are like most Middle East pilots - not great. When faced against U.S. and Western pilots, they're screwed.

 

 

Nobody should be in awe of Persian cats in the least bit.

Once a super power thought a third world country with two Super Etandart and six Exocettes were nothing to be concerned for, nor were 70´s planes with mostly overdue airframes and a bucnh of freefall bombs...

I think we got the worlds attention regarding "fleet defense", hence the introduction of the Phalanx defense system for instance....

P.D. My deepest respect for the brave UK men and women who fought the south atlantic conflcit, and got the Job Done.

It wasn´t personal, it wasn´t a football match, every body was doing his job.

The Point being: Never underestiomate what havoc even a few or even a pair of advance weapon systems can create on a given scenario.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Jester986, you have most certainly earned my respect.

We already have that...

 

Voice Attack can execute keyboard binds by voice input alone.

 

Jester, near target fox three" can easily be programmed to mean

 

JESTER MENU-OPEN-TARGET NEAREST-FIRE PHOENIX

WOW! now thats a neat feature to have ;)

I didn’t at any point say they were trained to the same standards as US Navy F-14 pilots. But at the same time you gave them no credibility whatsoever, which I maintain is harsh.

One can give them all the credibility in the world and the balance still shows they don't stand a chance against the better air arms of the world. This is fact, not a feeling. It means nothing to say how well they might perform against another low-skill opponent.

A group of farmers in the desert carrying AKs and wearing sandals made my life very difficult. Respect your adversary. And respect the international DCS community.

Nobody's talking about footmen, we're talking fighter pilots. Big difference. I respect my adversary; I'm not going to make them better than they are. Quit building strawmen, that's an easy way to lose respect.

 

Nobody's talking about footmen, we're talking fighter pilots. Big difference. I respect my adversary; I'm not going to make them better than they are. Quit building strawmen, that's an easy way to lose respect.

It's not a strawman argument, its an example of someone with inferior training and inferior equipment being a real threat to a superior force through use of creative tactics. Also as an American myself its embarrassing to see someone in an international forum basically saying "You suck USA Rules!" I'm proud of my country and to have served it. But so is everyone else here who is from somewhere else.

It's not a strawman argument, its an example of someone with inferior training and inferior equipment being a real threat to a superior force through use of creative tactics. Also as an American myself its embarrassing to see someone in an international forum basically saying "You suck USA Rules!" I'm proud of my country and to have served it. But so is everyone else here who is from somewhere else.

+1 as a veteran of the sandbox myself, I couldn't agree more..

and as for the 3rd world air force.

in a scenario over enemy territory even a 3 world unconventional force could ruin your day. with sound tactics.. like say drag the fight over.. Russian/Chinese provided AA / SAM's and strategically based MANPADS or where numbers of "inferior pilots or aircraft have a numbers advantage.. are nothing to joke about.

now is the threat the same as a SU-33 or J-15 with the latest missiles no, but a tomcat at distance with a 54, or a 7 or 9 with a alt and rear aspect advantage.. will make you pay for your mistakes..

+1 as a veteran of the sandbox myself, I couldn't agree more..

 

and as for the 3rd world air force.

 

in a scenario over enemy territory even a 3 world unconventional force could ruin your day. with sound tactics.. like say drag the fight over.. Russian/Chinese provided AA / SAM's and strategically based MANPADS or where numbers of "inferior pilots or aircraft have a numbers advantage.. are nothing to joke about.

 

now is the threat the same as a SU-33 or J-15 with the latest missiles no, but a tomcat at distance with a 54, or a 7 or 9 with a alt and rear aspect advantage.. will make you pay for your mistakes..

Thats the thing people seem to forget, an air craft with a missile is just as deadly if used correctly, If a mig 21 in dcs can splash f-15s with broken fm, rwr and missiles then i'm fairly sure a sneaky aircraft with some rear aspect missiles could take down a much new aircraft, also worth noting that the Tomcat had a very powerful radar so assuming there is still a few of them flying they could prove to be a very tricky aircraft to go up against especially considering if they're still flying then the pilots likely are still around.

It's not a strawman argument, its an example of someone with inferior training and inferior equipment being a real threat to a superior force through use of creative tactics. Also as an American myself its embarrassing to see someone in an international forum basically saying "You suck USA Rules!" I'm proud of my country and to have served it. But so is everyone else here who is from somewhere else.

-1

It is a strawman because you're suggesting I'm underestimating the enemy. I'm simply delivering an honest, factual assessment of their capabilities. Shall we no longer analyze threats out of fear of underestimating the adversary or hurting somebody's feelings? Come on now. It's embarrassing to see someone unable to distinguish the difference. If you feel as though the "data on the MiG is incorrect" (as Maverick put it in Top Gun) then show me where I'm wrong using data and facts of your own to counter my analysis instead of simply assuming they've got some creative tactics up their sleeves. There's a big difference between making assumptions and being able to actually argue for them.

As for the whole "nationalism" matter, you're the one evoking it, not me. I can say another air force will lose to my air force without it being rooted in nationalism.

+1 as a veteran of the sandbox myself, I couldn't agree more..

 

and as for the 3rd world air force.

 

in a scenario over enemy territory even a 3 world unconventional force could ruin your day. with sound tactics.. like say drag the fight over.. Russian/Chinese provided AA / SAM's and strategically based MANPADS or where numbers of "inferior pilots or aircraft have a numbers advantage.. are nothing to joke about.

 

now is the threat the same as a SU-33 or J-15 with the latest missiles no, but a tomcat at distance with a 54, or a 7 or 9 with a alt and rear aspect advantage.. will make you pay for your mistakes..

So why has the U.S. and the West far-and-away outperformed every Third World opponent following the Vietnam War? Surely it isn't luck.

Besides, if the threat is as dire as you insist, the better option is to simply not fight. And if we do have to fight, the U.S./West possess capabilities these other air forces simply don't have. What similar capabilities they do have, they possess in smaller quantities, in less capable forms, and they haven't anywhere close to the same skills. AWACS, for example, provides an edge that even the DCS crowd seems to have a hard time appreciating, despite being in service for over 40 years now.

Thats the thing people seem to forget, an air craft with a missile is just as deadly if used correctly, If a mig 21 in dcs can splash f-15s with broken fm, rwr and missiles then i'm fairly sure a sneaky aircraft with some rear aspect missiles could take down a much new aircraft, also worth noting that the Tomcat had a very powerful radar so assuming there is still a few of them flying they could prove to be a very tricky aircraft to go up against especially considering if they're still flying then the pilots likely are still around.

Except no computer simulation, DCS included, has ever truly been able to realistically simulate the human element of war, nor the competencies of actual fighter pilots to any degree of authenticity, so what DCS shows is possible isn't anything worth taking too seriously.

Available data suggests the Iranians have a very difficult time getting their Tomcats in the air. The powerful AWG-9 radar is overmatched by even more potent radars available today utilized by better-trained pilots, who are assisted by platforms possessing even more powerful airborne and shipborne radars. The Tomcat aces of Iran probably haven't flown in a long time, given that the Iran-Iraq War over 30 years ago. The likelihood those same pilots are still flying today isn't very high.

-1

 

 

 

It is a strawman because you're suggesting I'm underestimating the enemy. I'm simply delivering an honest, factual assessment of their capabilities. Shall we no longer analyze threats out of fear of underestimating the adversary or hurting somebody's feelings? Come on now. It's embarrassing to see someone unable to distinguish the difference. If you feel as though the "data on the MiG is incorrect" (as Maverick put it in Top Gun) then show me where I'm wrong using data and facts of your own to counter my analysis instead of simply assuming they've got some creative tactics up their sleeves. There's a big difference between making assumptions and being able to actually argue for them.

 

 

 

As for the whole "nationalism" matter, you're the one evoking it, not me. I can say another air force will lose to my air force without it being rooted in nationalism.

 

 

 

So why has the U.S. and the West far-and-away outperformed every Third World opponent following the Vietnam War? Surely it isn't luck.

 

 

Besides, if the threat is as dire as you insist, the better option is to simply not fight. And if we do have to fight, the U.S./West possess capabilities these other air forces simply don't have. What similar capabilities they do have, they possess in smaller quantities, in less capable forms, and they haven't anywhere close to the same skills. AWACS, for example, provides an edge that even the DCS crowd seems to have a hard time appreciating, despite being in service for over 40 years now.

 

 

 

 

 

Except no computer simulation, DCS included, has ever truly been able to realistically simulate the human element of war, nor the competencies of actual fighter pilots to any degree of authenticity, so what DCS shows is possible isn't anything worth taking too seriously.

 

 

Available data suggests the Iranians have a very difficult time getting their Tomcats in the air. The powerful AWG-9 radar is overmatched by even more potent radars available today utilized by better-trained pilots, who are assisted by platforms possessing even more powerful airborne and shipborne radars. The Tomcat aces of Iran probably haven't flown in a long time, given that the Iran-Iraq War over 30 years ago. The likelihood those same pilots are still flying today isn't very high.

Curious to see this data, I know that the Tomcat had some maintenance costs and issues compared to newer aircraft like the legacy hornets however I do believe that if the USN could fix the radar maintenance issues with the D then surely after all these years there is a strong possibility that they have done the same, however that being said i do remember a story on a documentary about when the conflict happened and the US pulled the engineers out they sabotaged a lot of the airframes systems on the way out.

That being said, it is always foolish to underestimate a foes capability based on just data alone, The United States learned this in Korea and Vietnam not just in the air but also on the ground.

As for the pilots not flying, that's anyone's guess, some pilots fly from 18 to almost 60 in some exceptional cases however that is not the norm, if anything i would say that the pilots might well of out lasted the air-frames life time but that's not to say that they still fly them (or domestically made or repaired ones)

edit: the one other thing is the political climate is different, if Russians got caught in another countries airforce wearing their own colours then it would be a political nightmare because as i'm led to believe that's largely what happened on Korea with Mig 15s being easier to shoot down until the Soviets started piloting them.

The "fixing the radar issues" with the D involved replacing most of the guts of the AWG9 with the guts of the APG70 radar from the F-15E. Pretty much the only thing left over from the AWG9 was the radar transmitter and a few other items.

Unless the Iranians have wholly replaced the vacuum tubes and transistors of the AWG9 with solid state electronics and such...I doubt the reliability of the AliCats radar is improved at all.

The "fixing the radar issues" with the D involved replacing most of the guts of the AWG9 with the guts of the APG70 radar from the F-15E. Pretty much the only thing left over from the AWG9 was the radar transmitter and a few other items.

 

Unless the Iranians have wholly replaced the vacuum tubes and transistors of the AWG9 with solid state electronics and such...I doubt the reliability of the AliCats radar is improved at all.

Hey it was Decca Radar I worked for and on fishing boats not Tomcats

:music_whistling:

Hey it was Decca Radar I worked for and on fishing boats not Tomcats

:music_whistling:

Lol! Well done

Can you imagine flying a super hornet today seeing an "F-14" pop up on your RWR? I don't care how much training you have, your butt might pucker a little... not that you wouldn't know it's out there already because of data link... but you know what I'm saying. It'd be surreal to know you're actually being illuminated, in 2018, by an F-14.

:)

Can you imagine flying a super hornet today seeing an "F-14" pop up on your RWR? I don't care how much training you have, your butt might pucker a little... not that you wouldn't know it's out there already because of data link... but you know what I'm saying. It'd be surreal to know you're actually being illuminated, in 2018, by an F-14.

 

:)

Oh I'm sure it's already happened for a long time now...we just don't hear about it.

If I were the Iranians I'd be a lot more worried about a "15" on their RWR

Curious to see this data, I know that the Tomcat had some maintenance costs and issues compared to newer aircraft like the legacy hornets however I do believe that if the USN could fix the radar maintenance issues with the D then surely after all these years there is a strong possibility that they have done the same, however that being said i do remember a story on a documentary about when the conflict happened and the US pulled the engineers out they sabotaged a lot of the airframes systems on the way out.

Do the Iranians have the logistics train for the F-14 like the U.S. did? What about the technical back-up? The U.S. often tapped civilians to resolve issues with the F-14, sometimes in-theater. Did the Iranians have access to this as well? If they did, was it anywhere close to the quality that the U.S. was privileged to?

At some point, you stop overthinking the matter and employ a little simple logic. I also don't see how the D-variant is relevant, given that it was a more sophisticated platform which, by the way, the Iranians didn't possess.

That being said, it is always foolish to underestimate a foes capability based on just data alone, The United States learned this in Korea and Vietnam not just in the air but also on the ground.

Nobody underestimated anybody. You can keep saying it, but it won't make it true. Give it a rest, you and your compatriots are starting to sound like you've got OCD.

As for the pilots not flying, that's anyone's guess, some pilots fly from 18 to almost 60 in some exceptional cases however that is not the norm, if anything i would say that the pilots might well of out lasted the air-frames life time but that's not to say that they still fly them (or domestically made or repaired ones)

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you conceding that Iranians don't fly anywhere near enough to remain proficient?

edit: the one other thing is the political climate is different, if Russians got caught in another countries airforce wearing their own colours then it would be a political nightmare because as i'm led to believe that's largely what happened on Korea with Mig 15s being easier to shoot down until the Soviets started piloting them.

Unless we know for a fact Russians are flying IRIAF planes, this means nothing.

The "fixing the radar issues" with the D involved replacing most of the guts of the AWG9 with the guts of the APG70 radar from the F-15E. Pretty much the only thing left over from the AWG9 was the radar transmitter and a few other items.

 

Unless the Iranians have wholly replaced the vacuum tubes and transistors of the AWG9 with solid state electronics and such...I doubt the reliability of the AliCats radar is improved at all.

Psh... facts. The DCS fan base has no use for such things. :lol:

This isn't exactly an F-14 question, but how many Jet Blast Deflector's were on the Forrestal Class Aircraft Carriers? I saw a video of a Tomcat that pushed another Tomcat's front end with its front gear lodged into the catwalk due to the lack of Jet Blast Deflectors